The go ahead given for RN carriers P of W and QE.

Post by **Dave Wooley** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:55 am

At last the RN are to get the two new carriers
Prince of Wales and Queen Elizabeth . A consortium
has been put together involving rivals BAE and VT to
undertake construction at sites on the Clyde, Barrow,
Portsmouth and Devenport .

Dave Wooley

Werner · Post by **Werner** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:09 pm

I hope they have an airplane to fly off of it. The F-35C at least is in trouble. The USN has decided to extend the buy of F/A-18 E/Fs at the expense of some of the F-35 program.

Maybe to be safe the MoD should talk to Russia about some SU-27Ks.

Post by **Dave Wooley** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:33 pm

I would bet that the air group is sorted as you really don't spend that kind of dosh and have no planes to fly off. Then what's the point in having a vacant floating airfield ? You never know the SU27Ks could be a better buy and a better aircraft , at least that's what the Indian navy must think ?

Dave Wooley

Werner · Post by **Werner** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:42 pm

I don't know, Dave. Shifting from the F-35C buy to F/A-18s is hardly a ringing endorsement....

Interesting to note the RAAF has made the same decision, suddenly buying 24 F/A-18 E/Fs in the first week of July (for $3.1 billion). The RAAF is being urged to cancel all it's F-35A buy in favor of F-22s.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:45 pm

Dave Wooley wrote:I would bet that the air group is sorted as you really don't spend that kind of dosh and have no planes to fly off.

Happens all the time.

Werner · Post by **Werner** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:49 pm

Problem is the quoted cost of the F-35C to Australia is $130 million, and the F/A-22 program manager quoted $137 million for Australian F-22s.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:51 pm

Dave Wooley wrote: You never know the SU27Ks could be a better buy and a better aircraft , at least that's what the Indian navy must think ?
Dave Wooley

On much throughgoing support Russian military equipment designed by long disbanded staffs of Soviet military industrial complex will continue to have is not clear.

India's decision is usually driven by what to superficial nationalists look most like the trappings of a great power.

kennylibben · Post by **kennylibben** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:07 pm

Anonymous wrote:
Dave Wooley wrote:I would bet that the air group is sorted as you really don't spend that kind of dosh and have no planes to fly off.

Happens all the time.

Graf Zeppelin for example...

Werner · Post by **Werner** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:13 pm

Look at the protracted evolution of the airwing on Charles deGaulle.

mike mccabe · Post by **mike mccabe** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:24 pm

We're bringing back the Swordfish.

Mike

Post by **Dave Wooley** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:41 pm

Knowing Werner and his admiration of all things Gallic the RN would like to order , wait for it, "THE RAFALE M". Werner this may be nearer the truth than you think. The French carrier will be a copy of the CVF and no doubt it will have a Rafale airgroup. So why not the RN ?

Dave Wooley

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:46 pm

I always wished we'd gone for a navalised version of the Eurofighter for these carriers, but at least thank god they have been given the green light.

Also just look at all the problems we've had with the Americans over releasing the design drawings and systems data for the JSF.

I also still wonder what type of AEW aircraft we shall adopt?, because choppers just don't cut the mustard and never have done.
Is 4 enough also?

Post by **Dave Wooley** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:02 pm

kennylibben wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Happens all the time.
Graf Zeppelin for example...

Well here it is the Graf Zeppelin as you have never
seen it before . Or to put it another way a German CVF
circa 2007 . Note in the picture there is no problem
with airgroups , If it flys it goes on the carrier

Dave Wooley

Werner · Post by **Werner** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:07 pm

Dave Wooley wrote:Knowing Werner and his admiration of all things Gallic the RN would like to order , wait for it, "THE RAFALE M". Werner this may be nearer the truth than you think. The French carrier will be a copy of the CVF and no doubt it will have a Rafale airgroup. So why not the RN ?
Dave Wooley

Would it surprise you to know I think the Rafale is one of the most impressive aircraft available? Especially for the price.

US military equipment is great, but come on. The prices are not even close to reflecting what a competitive market could produce.

I wonder how many sets of nose gear would be left on deck after that German carrier launched it's airgroup....

NucSub · Post by **NucSub** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:07 pm

Perhaps buying the known/developed aircraft is also indicative of preparing for more budget cuts in the near future. Bird in the hand beats out the one on the drawing board. Politicians love to either fund dogs (support friends) or cut them just as they are ready to go.....

Werner · Post by **Werner** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:11 pm

NucSub wrote:Perhaps buying the known/developed aircraft is also indicative of preparing for more budget cuts in the near future. Bird in the hand beats out the one on the drawing board. Politicians love to either fund dogs (support friends) or cut them just as they are ready to go.....

Could be. The F-35 is starting it's taxi tests this week. Would a month's wait actually make a difference? These buys seem to imply the failure of F-35 is a foregone conclusion.

As is customary for US vendors, no doubt the flight tests will reveal severe defects requiring a substantial additional investment from the buyers.

It's funny. The Boeing 787 can roll out on time and budget, but the military side is so bad at doing the same thing.

Foeth · Post by **Foeth** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:07 pm

Strange, I didn't know the F-35 was European...

MartinL · Post by **MartinL** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:27 pm

I was at the Fairford air fair last week and they had a full scale mock up of the F-35 and i did notice a Rolls Royce badge on the fusalarge ??

Werner · Post by **Werner** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:49 pm

The British F-35 has Rolls Royce engines, different electronics and weapons, as does the Japanese variant. I do not know about the Australian, Indian or other variants.

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:19 pm

It took Britain much wrangling to be 'allowed' to put her own avoinics, engines etc into these aircraft for her own use.

The US would not release the design data and software source code to Britain for this aircraft through fear of American technology-transfer to a foreign power.

Just about every US aircraft inservice with the RAF usually is a British version of it, Harriers, Chinooks, AWACS being good examples.

The British MoD wished to continue with this policy and had an agreement for sharing of the F-35's technology so she could rebuild them to their standards. She was also a Tier 1 partner and has invested something like �4 billion into its development!

The USA backed out on this agreement and only when Britian threatened to pull the entire order for F-35's did the Americans back down and share the technology.

So it seems more rosy at present, but to answer your question the F-35 is not European in the sense of the word.