G3 battlecruisers

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Pieter
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G3 battlecruisers

Post by Pieter »

Foeth: Discussion split off from the G3 picture post

Jellicoe and Beatty were still alive when the G3's would have 'entered service'. Anson was one of the names of the cancelled Hood class battlecruisers which would have been replaced by the G3's. The cancellation of the 3 extra Hood's , which were seen as not advanced enough and not fully incorporating WW1's lessons, was one of the reasons the battlecruisers were given priority over the battleships of the 1921 programme. As it so happened the order of the G3's also convinced the US it was loosing the new arms race as it was building 6 rather flimsy versions of Hood.

Furthermore the Admiral's name of Anson was not initially at the forefront of the Royal Navy's names to apply to the next capital ship as the 4th and 5th WW2 KGV class were initially to be named Jellicoe and Beatty.

I was just merely curious as I've never seen any source give these ships the name of Anson I was wondering what made the builder choose the name?
Of course as it is a 'never was' no one can ever say with any conviction the model has the wrong name.

Cheers
LB
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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

Dear Pieter,

It is new information to me that one of the 1916 Admiral class battlecruisers was to be named Anson.
Please can you point me to the source of your information, either published or archival I'm intrigued?

Obviously its fits as Anson was a very famous and well regarded Admiral from the 17th Century in the Royal Navy. He sailed around the world which became a published work and made him well known in his day. He later defeated the French at the First Battle of Cape Finisterre, and later still went onto to become a respected First Lord of the Admiralty.
However, as I said in my earlier post I've only ever seen the G3's given Invincible class names as they were intended to be commissioned after the ramnants of that 1906 class had been scrapped.

One interesting fact about the G3's was all four were actually laid down and some materials for their construction were actually stockpiled by their slipways. They were quite close to being built, hence why at the Brass Foudry I was able to locate full GA sheets for them, whereas the N3's and other designs of the time I could not.
Cheers
LB
Last edited by Laurence Batchelor on Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
ar

Post by ar »

Did the plans ACTUALLY have written on them "as fitted"?
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JWintjes
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Post by JWintjes »

Laurence Batchelor wrote:
One interesting fact about the G3's was all four were actually laid down and some materials for their construction were actually stockpiled by their slipways. They were quite close to being built, hence why at the Brass Foudry I was able to locate full GA sheets for them, whereas the N3's and other designs of the time I could not.
LB
Indeed - which is why I remarked earlier that British shipbuilding industry was actually hit by the cancellation of the G3s.

One question regarding the GA-sheets: Do they show 10-barrel pompoms or 8-barrel ones?

Jorit
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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

I thought that last statement my spark some reaction.

ar sorry wrong term, they are General Arrangement sheets, basically the sheets sent to the constructors to begin work with.
I have a full sized copy of the rigging sheet by Tennyson-D'Eyncourt, here at home with me as I have the resin 1/700 model of a G3 to do after I finish degree number two.
If I hadn't sealed your tube up already I might have added it for you to borrow.

Jorit 10-barrels are drawn on the rig sheet I have, but I spoke to John Roberts and D.K. Brown about this fact.
Brown was sitting on the fence, but John was of the impression if built they would only ever have had the 8-barrel version fitted.

I've compared the UK armaments and shipbuilding industry from WWI to WW2.
Such massive interwar downsizing, but still Britain's shipbuilding industry was still launching more ships than anyone else by 1939.
It was just her ability to produce heavy gun mountings, armour plate, machinery, the number of machine shops fitted with the latest automated tools and also the number of large slipways where she was hit the most.
Despite this, Rodney's & Nelson's construction in the 1920s helped somewhat.
Last edited by Laurence Batchelor on Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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JWintjes
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Post by JWintjes »

Laurence Batchelor wrote:
Jorit 10-barrels, but I spoke to John Roberts and DK Brown about this fact.
Brown was sitting on the fence, but John was of the impression if built they would only ever have had the 8-barrel version fitted.
Ah, interesting! Has the 10-barrel version ever been completely designed, or did an prototype exist?
I've compared the UK armaments and shipbuilding industry from WWI to WW2.
Such massive interwar downsizing, but still Britain's shipbuilding industry was still launching more ships than anyone else by 1939.
It was just her ability to produce heavy gun mountings, armour plate, machinery, the number of machine shops fitted with the latest automated tools and also the number of large slipways where she it was hit the most.
Despite this Rodney's & Nelson's construction in the 1920s helped somewhat.
That is an interesting observation - is there any data surviving about the shipyards in question (I'm thinking of reduction of workforce and the like)?

Jorit
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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

I haven't seen a 10-barrelled pom-pom in photos or detailed plans.
I suspect it never got past the design phase.
However, there might by something in the massive Vickers/Armstrong's collections in Scotland who knows.

To answer your second question the first port of call I recommend is to obtain this small monograph I bought from Glasgow University : Centre for Business History in Scotland - Research Papers in the History of British Shipbuilding - Research Monograph No.2 (1998) Warship Building and Repair During the Second World War written by Dr Ian Buxton.

Another shorter article is in the the latest Warships journal, again by Buxton, which talks about the slowness of RN heavy gun mountings in the 1930s rearmament programs.

Thirdly, one only has to buy some of the excellent business history publications on a specific individual shipbuilding/armaments firm to learn the scale of downsizing. There is a wealth of academic papers on this also from people like Anthony Slaven and the rest of the 'Scottish University shipbuilding industry school' who publish on that profusely.

Finally did you get my email earlier on Hood's sisters?

Cheers
LB
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JWintjes
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Post by JWintjes »

First of all, many thanks for the email - sorry for not answering, I'm currently slightly more chaotic than usual. The drawings are very interesting; I guess I know what to do with one of the Hoods lying around... :wink:

Then thanks for the info above; the Vicker/Armstrong collection might indeed be a good idea - who knows, if I ever get round to it I might have a look at that (and at some other stuff I'm interested in).

Jorit
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Pieter
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Post by Pieter »

A website (gasp!!), but one of the best researched websites on the web, Http://www.hmshood.com. under history->constructe -> design.
Laurence Batchelor wrote:Dear Pieter,

It is new information to me that one of the 1916 Admiral class battlecruisers was to be named Anson.
Please can you point me to the source of your information, either published or archival I'm intrigued?

Obviously its fits as Anson was a very famous and well regarded Admiral from the 17th Century in the Royal Navy. He sailed around the world which became a published work and made he well known in his day. He later defeated the French at the First Battle of Cape Finisterre, and later still went onto to become a respected First Lord of the Admiralty.
However as I said in my earlier post I've only ever seen the G3's given Invincible class names as they were intended to be commissioned after the ramnants of that 1906 class had been scrapped.

One interesting fact about the G3's was all four were actually laid down and some materials for their construction were actually stockpiled by their slipways. They were quite close to being built, hence why at the Brass Foudry I was able to locate full GA sheets for them, whereas the N3's and other designs of the time I could not.
Cheers
LB
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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

Pieter wrote:A website (gasp!!), but one of the best researched websites on the web, Http://www.hmshood.com. under history->constructe -> design.
of the time I could not.
Cheers
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Lesforan
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G3 conversion

Post by Lesforan »

it's too bad they were not converted into aircraft carriers under the Washington Naval Treaty.
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Tiornu
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Post by Tiornu »

What sources are there on the laying down of the G3's?
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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

Published sources?

Books:
Oscar Parkes
Raven & Roberts
D K Brown

Journals:
N J M Campbell 4 part article in Conway's Warship
ar

Post by ar »

Where is it then? "as fitteds".

Laurence Batchelor wrote:Published sources?

Books:
Oscar Parkes
Raven & Roberts
D K Brown

Journals:
N J M Campbell 4 part article in Conway's Warship
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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

ar wrote:Where is it then? "as fitteds".
I edited above posts to GA to correct my incorrect turn of phrase.
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Post by Tiornu »

I looked in the materials I have at hand and could not find any dates for laying down the G3's. Does anyone have this information?
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Werner
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Post by Werner »

I have an order date of 21 October, 1921; suspended 18 November and canceled February, 1922 (Breyer, 1970).

I seriously doubt they were actually laid down. One month is hardly time to loft the blue prints or prepare the sand for the stem and other castings, let alone the necessary preparation of the building ways.
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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

I have read alot of materials were gathered at the first slipway for her keel to be laid.

Tiornu which sources have you already checked?
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Post by Tiornu »

I looked in Parkes, whose tables gives dates like those cited by Werner. I looked in the Campbell articles, but of course I may have overlooked something. I tried Brown's The Grand Fleet, Conway's, R&R, Greger, and Burt. I can't find any indication that a keel was laid. Wouldn't it be unusual for a keel to be laid with no name officially allocated?
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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

I never said a keel was laid merely the material was collected for it to be by the contracting shipyard.
I read this a number of years ago, and with like a lot of things at present can't remember where but it was definately in something published not archival.
That is an interesting observation - is there any data surviving about the shipyards in question (I'm thinking of reduction of workforce and the like)?
Jorit
I'll give you some facts and figures to back up my assessment and throw in some more for good measure! :big_grin:

During the economic slump of the interwar period some 30 shipyards closed in Britain.
The number of slipways over 250ft reduced from 459 in 1930 to 266 in 1939 with only 134 of the later figure available for naval construction.
(Source: Hornsby W. Factories and Plant HMSO 1958).
There was 3 main armament firms for the Admiralty to deal with in 1914 (Armstrongs, Vickers and the Coventry Ordnance Works) by 1939 there was only Vickers-Armstongs left.
Much skilled labour was shed in the 1930s and there was also a lack of recruitment for apprentices (this mirrors also the engineering firms I've studied in Coventry inter-war).

But to give some perspective the British shipbuilding industry in 1939 was still the world leader.
It had some 60 yards and more than twice the merchant ship output of each of the next two largest producers, namely Germany and Japan.
During Sept 1939 to Sept 1945 it would go on to build from scratch over 7,000 warships of all types.
By the end of the 1941 some 2,000 conversions were carried out mostly trawlers, but could also include large vessels e.g. 56 liners were converted to AMC's at the start of the war.

To give also some idea how strained the british shipbuilding industry was as a whole with constant repair work from enemy action this reached a peak of some 30% of the fleet undergoing this in mid-1942, but this fell to only 4% by 1945 showing how the war at sea had been won by that time.

Of course its obvious to state the problem with the british shipbuilding industry was the bottleneck for heavy guns and mountings, but there hasn't been enough said about armour plate.
When the Admiralty ordered the KGV's in 1936/37 it had to finance new armour making plant at three major British makers (English Steel, Firth-Brown and Beardmore) as there was no civilian firms who could take on the work.
To supplement production they also placed orders in Czechoslovakia for non-cemented armour. This was to be for deck armour for the cruisers and aircraft carriers also ordered in the late 1930s.
However, much of this new capacity was diverted to new tank production early war and this slowed new naval construction somewhat.

Going back to guns there really was no way around for this as making heavy gun mountings is a very specialised task requiring expensive, complex and massive machinery using very skilled labour.
You also need factories with gun pits so the whole mounting can be built and tested and thus all teething troubles ironed out before it gets transported to the dockyard. (note: the Nelson's 16-inch mountings and the KGV 14-inch mountings both never had this testing and that is why in part they had problems on the ships themselves later on!)
In the end british industry of the late 1930s and at the start of the war failed to be able to produce both 14inch and 16inch mounts, 6inch and 8inch and 5.25inch mounts all at the same time.
This is why, in part, the larger calibre's were dropped in favour of producing more and more of the smaller calibre's.
Private industry, mainly engineering firms did however come in and make 20mm, 40mm and 12pdr mounts.
Last edited by Laurence Batchelor on Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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