Royal Navy May Share New Carriers With France

[Jack Ray]

FYI

Royal Navy May Share New Carriers With France
By Nicola Smith and Michael Smith
London Sunday Times
May 18, 2008

Two hundred years after the battle of Trafalgar, the navy could end up sharing the pride of its fleet with the French. Driven by spiralling budgets, the two navies began talks last week aimed at sharing their aircraft carriers.

The government is expected to give the go-ahead for the Royal Navy�s two new aircraft carriers this week, part of a joint Anglo-French project to build a total of three.

The French, who currently have only one carrier, the Charles de Gaulle, are questioning whether they can afford a replacement and are keen to explore closer co-operation with Britain instead.

�We all have budget constraints and we are looking to see how we can rationalise and reinforce our resources and work together,� commented a French diplomat who is close to the talks.

Both countries are facing a �2 billion shortfall in their defence budgets and the cost of the new carriers at just under �2 billion each is proving a major burden.

The �bilateral carrier group interoperability initiative� was proposed by the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, at his summit meeting with Gordon Brown in London in March.

French sources suggest it could result in either navy borrowing an aircraft carrier from the other if their own was unavailable as a result of a breakdown or refit.

�If we have no carrier to do a mission then the only way currently is to try and form a coalition . . . and to ask a country if it will do the mission,� said Captain J�r�me Erulin, the French naval spokesman.

Erulin pointed out that Britain and France could only borrow each other�s carriers if both countries agreed on the military objectives. �The only way for France to obtain an air carrier mission during a carrier refit is to ask a country at a political level to do this,� he said.

Nick Witney, former head of the European Defence Agency, said that if France could not afford to go ahead with a new carrier, sharing capabilities with the British made good sense.

�It could do a deal with the Brits to co-ordinate refit cycles and joint naval forces,� Witney said. �Then the French can say if we want to bomb someone when our single carrier is in refit the Brits can do it for us.�

MoD officials dismissed the talks as �aspirational� and insisted there were �no current plans� to share carriers with the French.

The problem with having only a single carrier is not confined to the French. Earlier this year Bob Ainsworth, minister for the armed forces, confirmed that one of the Royal Navy�s two existing carriers, the Ark Royal, will go out of service in 2012.

The first of the new carriers is not due in service until 2014 at the earliest, leaving the Royal Navy with only one carrier for a period of at least two years.

The other British carrier, Illustrious, will go out of service in 2015, Ainsworth said, again leaving the navy with only one carrier until the second replacement is completed in 2016 at the earliest.

That means the Royal Navy will have only one carrier for at least four years, so that despite its talk of mere �aspirations� it might be forced to borrow a carrier from the French.

[Gerarddm]

How the mighty have fallen.

I half expected the solution would be a Blue/Gold team thing wherein a carrier would serve 6 months under one flag w/crew, then hand over to the other country/crew for 6 months' deployment.

[Werner]

No, they'll stage it so the British have to enforce the most unpleasant aspects of French foreign policy, then shrug off the results.

[chuck]

How the mighty have fallen.

Where have you been?

Not since 1946 has Britain managed to complete a first class capital ship more or less on her own, why the sudden surprise at the fact that she should continue to prove unable to do so now, when the cost of a first line capital ship has grown to represent a greater fraction of British GDP than ever before?

Britain has not been "mighty" in my life time, nor I suspect in yours.

[Jack Ray]

How the mighty have fallen.

Where have you been?

Not since 1946 has Britain managed to complete a first class capital ship more or less on her own, why the sudden surprise at the fact that she should continue to prove unable to do so now, when the cost of a first line capital ship has grown to represent a greater fraction of British GDP than ever before?

Britain has not been "mighty" in my life time, nor I suspect in yours.

It's all relative. If the UK actually builds any of these ships in a British yard it will be quite an accomplishment.

If the U.S.A. is not careful, it may find itself in a similar position all too soon.

Jack

[Gerarddm]

I understand that, Chuck. I was taking a somewhat longer historical perspective.

[Francisco P. de Nanclares]

Chuck may be right, but Navies are not only ships but the people who handle them and fight with them.

In this regard, the Royal Navy still stands at the top.

Just my 2c, of course.
Pachi.

[RNfanDan]

...Navies are not only ships but the people who handle them and fight with them

In this regard, the Royal Navy still stands at the top. Pachi.

Somehow, the notion of a shared warship, even among allies, gives me pause. If some politico-economic crisis should develop between Britain and France, whichever government has possession at the time, could gain a powerful negotiating tool.

I'm not necessarily referring to a war, but rather to some lesser crisis and/or sudden chilling of Anglo-French relations, in which political accessions could be leveraged from the party dispossessed of the carrier(s). After all, Britain and France have no equivalent historical precedent of Lend-Lease to have learned from.

On a much lower level, it seems difficult to imagine any sense of traditional pride being invested by either operational crew. What sailors, whether French or British, could point with pride to a ship only half "their own"?

[Jack Ray]

Somehow, the notion of a shared warship, even among allies, gives me pause. If some politico-economic crisis should develop between Britain and France, whichever government has possession at the time, could gain a powerful negotiating tool.

I'm not necessarily referring to a war, but rather to some lesser crisis and/or sudden chilling of Anglo-French relations, in which political accessions could be leveraged from the party dispossessed of the carrier(s). After all, Britain and France have no equivalent historical precedent of Lend-Lease to have learned from.

On a much lower level, it seems difficult to imagine any sense of traditional pride being invested by either operational crew. What sailors, whether French or British, could point with pride to a ship only half "their own"?

These are very good points. I know that some channel ferries (Stena) have Anglo-French crews, but I am not sure how such an arrangement would work in navies. I think that the best savings would be if some sort of economies of scale were worked out by ordering multiple ships for two navies.

[chuck]

...Navies are not only ships but the people who handle them and fight with them

In this regard, the Royal Navy still stands at the top. Pachi.

Somehow, the notion of a shared warship, even among allies, gives me pause. If some politico-economic crisis should develop between Britain and France, whichever government has possession at the time, could gain a powerful negotiating tool.

I'm not necessarily referring to a war, but rather to some lesser crisis and/or sudden chilling of Anglo-French relations, in which political accessions could be leveraged from the party dispossessed of the carrier(s). After all, Britain and France have no equivalent historical precedent of Lend-Lease to have learned from.

On a much lower level, it seems difficult to imagine any sense of traditional pride being invested by either operational crew. What sailors, whether French or British, could point with pride to a ship only half "their own"?

Nothing bad has yet come out of the joined US Russian crewing of the international spacestation.

[MartinL]

I've just read this and dont know weather to laught or cry.
Just on a practicall scale try changing not just crew but airwings, amutition ,spares,whole workshops and many things not listed. THat is unless the UK and france are going to have a total millitary integration

Not happening me thinks

[chuck]

At least twice during the 20th century, France indicated willingness to join with Britain to form a Common Union with the British Monarch as the head of state. Bet you didn't know that.

I think if given a choice, France would have preferred an Anglo-French axis over the current Franco-German axis.

Neither France nor Britain are or have realistic hope of ever becoming a first tier power on their own. Both on their own in fact have no hope of avoiding serious continued declined in the global power ranking. In this situation one must weigh how much complete soverignty over a perpetually declining second rate power is worth in the long run, against how much benefit there is in being a time share first rate power.

There is nothing sad in adaptability. It is very sad, however, to cling to the beautified memory of a long lost past in lieu of making the necessary adaptation for the future.

[Werner]

At least twice during the 20th century, France indicated willingness to join with Britain to form a Common Union with the British Monarch as the head of state. Bet you didn't know that.
...
Neither France nor Britain are or have realistic hope of ever becoming a first tier power on their own.

To what end would this consolidation be a means?

Europe has already had a common financial community for decades. Closer cooperation implies a broader range of agreement than disagreement. Having spent time in both countries, I certainly believe they have more differences which deserve to be preserved than common interests which would militate for the elimination of the differences.

If the Norwegians and Swedes couldn't get along, if the Czechs and Slovaks couldn't get along, how could the French and British get along under one flag (unless that flag is green, with a scimitar and the words Allah Akbar across it.

[Francisco P. de Nanclares]

This not exactly adaptability. A warship is sovereign territory, and usually a motive for national pride. Would you share a couple boomers with, say, Spain for the sake of not going down the list?. Or would you better try some kind of alliance?. The 1000-ship Navy comes to mind.

You see, the Netherlands and Belgium share a Fleet Command, a way to economise effort and money, but they do not share hulls.

Cheers.
Pachi.

[G. Shoda]

Just goes to show you what muddle-headed thinking can occur at the highest levels. Anyone can see that it won't work.

Too bad there isn't a test for common sense for politicians and (more importantly) judges.

[DanCinSD]

Nothing bad has yet come out of the joined US Russian crewing of the international spacestation.

sharing an international spacestation (mostly civilian) is nothing like sharing ANY type of military force! Heck, we could barely put up with Monty in WWII.... or is that Monty could barely put up with us, and we were allies.

[Gone Asiatic]

I've just read this and dont know weather to laught or cry.
Just on a practicall scale try changing not just crew but airwings, amutition ,spares,whole workshops and many things not listed. THat is unless the UK and france are going to have a total millitary integration

Not happening me thinks

Agree - a bleeding stupid idea.

[Werner]

I thought they meant the crew and organization would remain the same, just the French could request operational control. That's why I commented they would wait until an inconvenient moment to so something distasteful, then let the FAA take the blame.

The French operate CTOL aircraft. Employing the British ramp-decked carrier would be sub-optimal for them.

[Dave Wooley]

How the mighty have fallen.

Where have you been?

Not since 1946 has Britain managed to complete a first class capital ship more or less on her own, why the sudden surprise at the fact that she should continue to prove unable to do so now, when the cost of a first line capital ship has grown to represent a greater fraction of British GDP than ever before?

Britain has not been "mighty" in my life time, nor I suspect in yours.

All nations have their day in the sun and just fade away to insignificance
Dave Wooley

[Jack Ray]

Where have you been?

Not since 1946 has Britain managed to complete a first class capital ship more or less on her own, why the sudden surprise at the fact that she should continue to prove unable to do so now, when the cost of a first line capital ship has grown to represent a greater fraction of British GDP than ever before?

Britain has not been "mighty" in my life time, nor I suspect in yours.

All nations have their day in the sun and just fade away to insignificance
Dave Wooley

Touche!