AirStrike

kennylibben · Post by **kennylibben** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:30 am

Just curious... they dont seem to be very defended anymore. I suppose its all missiles now? perhaps that is why they seem so defensless to me. Particularily aircraft carriers....

Werner · Post by **Werner** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:36 am

The AEgis system was designed to protect a carrier task force from the full force of a Backfire bomber regiment, with some Oscar missiles thrown in.

The new generation of SM-2ER (VL) missiles have taken the engagement zone out well beyond 100 miles from the ships.

W

kennylibben · Post by **kennylibben** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:40 am

Werner wrote:The AEgis system was designed to protect a carrier task force from the full force of a Backfire bomber regiment, with some Oscar missiles thrown in.

The new generation of SM-2ER (VL) missiles have taken the engagement zone out well beyond 100 miles from the ships.

W

boring, i prefer guns blazing!

what was that quote Patton said... something about there cannot be heros without soldiers or something like that? referring to the thoughts that one day soldiers wont even have to fight because of technology?

Tracy White · Post by **Tracy White** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:49 am

kennylibben wrote:boring, i prefer guns blazing!

Let's park you out on a ship in a modern war then and see how you feel! Me, I like water and swimming, but if I were in a war I'd want every inbound destroyed as far from the ship as possible.

kennylibben · Post by **kennylibben** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:51 am

yes tracy, i understand it.... but its gonna make some CRAPPY war movies for the future!

Post by **JWintjes** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:55 am

Personally, imagining I would have, say, a Type 23 frigate, I wouldn't care too much about the aircraft carrier, at least not a USN one - after all, what damage can you do with a phalanx? Also, you'd have to come pretty close - enough time to empty my whole 4.5in magazine into the carrier...

With aircraft, it's of course different...

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Just a little more seriously, though, personally I'd be a big fan of taking things out beyond visual range. If you have to power up your CIWS, then something has already gone awfully wrong.

Jorit

Post by **JWintjes** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:56 am

kennylibben wrote:yes tracy, i understand it.... but its gonna make some CRAPPY war movies for the future!

Don't bet on it. Not every navy in the world has Aegis.

Jorit

kennylibben · Post by **kennylibben** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:02 am

JWintjes wrote:
kennylibben wrote:yes tracy, i understand it.... but its gonna make some CRAPPY war movies for the future!
Don't bet on it. Not every navy in the world has Aegis.

Jorit

okay okay okay, but who wants to watch a movie about Thai junks shooting at hang-gliders with bows and arrows?

wait a tick tick, that sounds pretty good!

Post by **JWintjes** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:24 am

kennylibben wrote: okay okay okay, but who wants to watch a movie about Thai junks shooting at hang-gliders with bows and arrows?

wait a tick tick, that sounds pretty good!

I was rather thinking of the last gun cruiser in the world firing broadsides against refurbished ex-RN Counties...

Jorit

Tracy White · Post by **Tracy White** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:38 am

kennylibben wrote:yes tracy, i understand it.... but its gonna make some CRAPPY war movies for the future!

Not if done correctly. Even though we have these long-range missiles we have what's known as a layered defense. We've also got the RIM-116 RAM missile, which is medium to short range. So... cut to scene.

Scene of planes or enemy ships launching a volley of missiles

CIC: missiles coming in.. radar officer gives info and ETA. manueuvers started... captain or weapons officer orders launch of long-range missiles

Scene outside of ship launching missiles and missiles climing up and away.

Scene of enemy missiles flying in low.

Inside CIC someone updates range and ETA

"good guy" Missiles starting to roll over the top of their climb and head back down to the water.

Back to the CIC, range is read again, obviously much closer now to show these things are approaching FAST and build tension.

water level scene of enemy missiles skimming above the waves... glow of incoming friendly missiles off in the distance and then quickly explosions start to happen... many of the missiles are shot down but some others can be seen zooming away.

Back to the CIC.. radar officer gives new tally... still missiles coming in... and the ETA. Captain orders the RAM to fire when in range, chaff, countermeasures (probably already on but what the hey) etc.

Outside shot of ship as RAM missiles explode outward in rapid succession, chaff launchers popping and the chaff falling around the ship.

Shot of the inbound missiles now with the ship visible in the distance. One-by-one the missiles start falling victim to the RAM but we can see one boring in... will it hit? Will it miss from the chaff?????

Das Boat is one of the best war movies ever made and the types of battles the u-boats fought is similiar to all-missile warfare. It's how you use the equipment and the story.

Werner · Post by **Werner** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:47 am

JWintjes wrote: If you have to power up your CIWS, then something has already gone awfully wrong.

On board the carrier the sound of the CIWS firing is referred to as the "abandon ship alarm".

Vlad · Post by **Vlad** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:54 am

back on topic, surely this depends on the ship.

Not everyone has AEGIS, in fact the vast majority of warships dont have Aegis or an equivalent system. And besides, you won't be firing at the planes, youll be firing at the missiles the planes launch from outside your engagement range. Sea-skimmers can get really close before you spot them, so youll need some CIWS to take them out.

Oh, and wait a minute. Cast your mind back to a small island in the South Pacific, about 1982. I seem to recall a pair of elderly A-4s managed to get close enough to a UK destroyer to drop iron bombs on it, accurately, and unmolested. You never know when such a situation could occur in the gulf for example. Again, some rapid firing guns could help.

Score 1 for the group of people advocating more close defence guns, i'd like to see the other side argue their way out of this one.

Post by **JWintjes** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:06 pm

Vlad wrote:
Score 1 for the group of people advocating more close defence guns, i'd like to see the other side argue their way out of this one.

Sure it's nice to have, but you don't want to rely on it. What was wrong about San Carlos and Bomb alley was not the lack of AA guns (actually, that was a factor, but only a symptom) - in an ideal world a powerful carrier task force would have put up constant CAPs day and night and prevented the A4s from even coming close to the island. The best defence against an A4 with iron bombs is a Phantom blasting it out of the sky...

San Carlos is a prime example of the risks you run when you try to stage an amphibious operation without suitable air support.

Jorit

Post by **JWintjes** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:06 pm

Werner wrote:
JWintjes wrote: If you have to power up your CIWS, then something has already gone awfully wrong.
On board the carrier the sound of the CIWS firing is referred to as the "abandon ship alarm".

That's a good one!

Have to remember that.

Jorit

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:13 pm

Vlad,

I hope you mean South ATLANTIC--otherwise there must have been a war I wasn't aware of...

Mac

Vlad · Post by **Vlad** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:45 pm

oops, my apologies, I did mean South Atlantic, I was reffering to the Falkland conflict of coruse

Werner · Post by **Werner** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:24 pm

Vlad wrote:Not everyone has AEGIS, in fact the vast majority of warships dont have Aegis or an equivalent system. And besides, you won't be firing at the planes, youll be firing at the missiles the planes launch from outside your engagement range. Sea-skimmers can get really close before you spot them, so youll need some CIWS to take them out.

AEgis supports two kinds of primary AA weapons: Area wide (0 - 250km) and Theatre wide (THAAD > 250 <= 500km).

Upshot is that you only need one or two AEgis equipped ships to put a "lid" over your task force, or invasion beach or both (or whatever). The (OpenVMS-based) Cooperative Engagement System allows AEgis sensors and platforms to extend beyond the range of missiles launched from any one ship.

W

ISUCyclone · Post by **ISUCyclone** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:43 pm

Werner, your movie scene reminds me of the chapter from Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising where the Nimitz is attacked by the backfires. Definetly a lot of tension built into that scene and plenty of big booms and bangs.

Post by **Timmy C** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:13 pm

Red storm rising? I thought it was in Sum of All fears?

kennylibben · Post by **kennylibben** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:27 pm

Timmy,

in sum of all fears Nimitz isn't attacked. In fact there is no military conflict with the US except for the dirty bomb in the stadium.... at least from what i remember. Hmmmm.... crap... now i get this weird memory of a carrier being attacked..... you evil beast... someone please straighten me out.

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If modern ships were attacked by say an aircraft carrier, would they be able to hold them off?

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