Calling all Benson-class & Gleaves-class DD fans

[NCMac]

Rick,

Thank you sir, that's exactly what I was asking about. Your photo is the best I've seen; there don't seem to be many and most show it covered in canvas. As you said, this area seems to have been modified pretty early on and either the entire platform was eliminated or the equipment moved, deleted, or changed.

An interesting looking device, I've not seen anything quite like it. Now to more research on torpedo directors...

Thank you so much again,

Mac

[ArizonaBB39]

Ok guys, since Navsource isn't working for me right now I had a few questions.

First: Has anyone built this kit: 1/350 U.S.S. Benson DD-421, 1940 ~ Smart Kit?

Second: What ships can be built from this kit, and how much different would they have been in 1941?

Third: Were any of these class ship in the Pacific Fleet during 1941?

I'd like to use this kit to build as a 1941 version in Ms2 camouflage, which according to shipcamouflage.com gives me the following ships:

421 Benson MS 2
423 Gleaves MS 2
424 Niblack MS 2
426 Lansdale MS 2
428 Charles F Hughes MS 2
432 Kearny MS 2
436 Monssen MS 2

Thanks for any help

[Dick J]

Out of the box, the Benson 1940 kit can build DD-421 (obviously) and DD's 422, 425, 426, 427 and 428. If you kit-bash and replace the stacks and the center superstructure (the part below the stacks) with parts from a Gleaves class kit, then you can get pre-war DD's 423, 424, and 429-444. The first ships of the class to enter the Pacific did so when Hornet transferred for the Dolittle raid (Mar '42). She was accopmanied by DD's 433, 434, 435 and 436. The ships began their wartime alterations during 1941, so you would have to be very specific about which ship you wanted, and would have to pin down an approximate date before you could determine whether or not you could use this kit to build the ship you want. Between this kit and the Livermore kit, you could kit-bash quite a few of the configurations.

[Rick E Davis]

First off none of the BENSON-GLEAVES units were assigned to the Pacific Fleet until about April 1942.

The camo part of the question is kind of tricky for me, I'm not sure on when those units had Ms 2. The Camo Database isn't always accurate in capturing every unit in a given scheme. But as for which of your listed units could be built from this kit in 1941, in a short answer all ... with a BUT.

The 1940 BENSON kit is after all a BENSON Class kit in their AS COMPLETED configuration. So the BENSON's in this list would be the easier.

DD-421 BENSON
DD-426 LANSDALE
DD-428 CHARLES F HUGHES

All of the above are also units from DesRon 7 which is important, more later.

The rest of the units are GLEAVES class units.

DD-423 GLEAVES
DD-424 NIBLACK

The above two were also assigned to DesRon 7.

DD-432 KEARNY
DD-436 MONSSEN

These two were assigned to DesRon 11.

In 1941 all of these units were modified from the configuration you see in the basic kit, with the high searchlight structure removed and additional 50-cal MGs added. The DesRon 7 units (which included all six of the early BENSON class units and three of the GLEAVES class units ... DD-423, 424, and 431) retained FIVE 5-in guns but only one 5-TT mount and had TEN 50-cal MGs. The rest of the early GLEAVES class units, DD-429 through 444 (minus DD-431) retained FOUR 5-in guns and TEN TT with twelve MGs. The remaining open mounts were given half-shields with a canvas top.

So the 1940 BENSON kit would be well suited to represent the early BENSON class and even the early GLEAVES class units with a different set of stacks. The searchlight platform would need to be deleted and extra 50-cal MGs added ... the DML kit doesn't have enough MGs included to do that.

In this thread we have discussed these 1941 versions of the BENSON-GLEAVES class and I have posted several images ... pg 4, pg 26-27, pg 32 (close-up views of WOOLSEY), pg 36, and pg 39 I posted a sketch of the aft deckhouse layout (also reposted below) for the FOUR 5-in gun version. The FIVE 5-in gun version 50-cal MG layout is different ... the four MGs on and before the bridge are the same, as are the two on either side of stack #2, but two were installed on the aft corners of the midships deckhouse and two between the 53 and 54 mounts on the aft deckhouse. (See the two images of BENSON and GLEAVES below)

Here is a view of DD-421 BENSON in Ms 2 on 27 June 1941.


Here is a view of DD-423 GLEAVES in Ms 2 on 18 June 1941.


A few units like the DesDiv 22 units were painted in Ms 1 before the searchlight platform was removed. DD-434 MEREDITH on 29 April 1941.




I almost forgot this. I found this drawing/illustration of a FIVE-Gun version of the GLEAVES class destroyers at NARA on one of my last trips. Not a detailed plan, but a pretty good profile layout in illustrating the mid-1941 configuration prior to radar.




I seem to remember that someone did a build for one of these mid-1941 version BENSON-GLEAVES fairly recently, but I can't find the build.

[Gordon Bjorklund]

Abram,
I have this kit on my work bench now. I just started putting the deck railings on. It is being build OOB with a light gray pre-war finish. I had thoughts of doing her in a MS2 finish but got lazy and she is light gray now.

[ArizonaBB39]

Thanks for the input guys. Rick thanks for those pictures especially. I think I will build the Benson herself, as seen in the picture you posted. I find it interesting that the ship's number is just before the break in the deck. I've never seen that before. Was this unique to the Ms2 scheme, or just the Benson/Gleaves class, or just the naval yard that painted the ships?

[Rick E Davis]

The hull number under the bridge area was a care-over from WWI practice on destroyers. I believe the USN started to use this location when they started applying camo in the Spring of 1941 on at least some destroyers. Someone told me that there was some confusion about where to apply the hull numbers with no official direction ... so some units applied as it was done during WWI. It does seem to be associated with Boston and the Atlantic Fleet. In any case, it didn't last long for whatever reason, but I have seen it used from about April 1941 (on Ms 1 camo) to at least June 1941. If you look, you can see the hull numbers on all three destroyers I posted are located there. Ironically, Ms 2 disappeared about the same time as locating the hull numbers in this area. Ms 2 was replaced by the original Ms 12, another graded system. Ms 12mod went to the various splotch patterns.

I saw a guys build in this camo scheme and it is really nice looking. No idea how effective it was, but it sure is "pretty".

[ArizonaBB39]

Thanks for that Rick. You wouldn't happen to have pics of that build do you?

[Rick E Davis]

Sorry, but no. I didn't have my camera with me at the time.

[Rick E Davis]

Something I was going to say and keep forgetting. Doing a little "kit-bashing" with the 1942 LIVERMORE kit would help with modifying the 1940 BENSON kit to the mid-1941 appearance. Plus, with the remains of the two kits, I think you can still build a 1940 GLEAVES class destroyer in the original configuration.

[ArizonaBB39]

I have the Livermore kit, just finished her actually, but I converted her to her late war fit with the Ms32 camo. (I had started the conversion before Dragon came out with their late war Benson class kit). So I have quite a few pieces left over from that too. I guess its time to read this whole thread so I can determine what all needs to be done. I bought the 1940 kit this weekend so it should be showing up soon.

[Rick E Davis]

The parts I'm thinking about that would be common with the 1942 LIVERMORE (four 5-in. 10-TT) configuration with the 1941 BENSON (five 5-in, 5-TT) configuration that are not in the 1940 BENSON kit, are the aft deckhouse emergency con and other gear as seen on Part 12 on Sprue N. I show that area in the "rough" sketch a few entries up on this page. That area is not all that hard to scratch build, but the kit parts from the 1942 LIVERMORE kit do make good 'patterns'. You can't really use part N-12 as is on BENSON, the bulwarks for the 20-mm guns installed on the aft deckhouse aren't in the same location as was seen on the 1941 Five-Gun BENSONS and the foundation ring for 53 mount isn't there. The actual location for the aft deckhouse 50-cal (and later the 20-mm gun) MGs is the aft most gun (P/S) seen on the sketch above. The 1945 BENSON kit has a lot of "extras" included with the kit not needed for a 1945 version and may be another option for spare parts. Also, the early BENSON-GLEAVES kits only include ONE canvas covered 5-in mount, so you need to "steal" another one from somewhere. Or you can try scratch building half shields for the two open mounts that come with the kit.

The 20-mm "tubs" at the aft end of the midships deckhouse appear to be extensions that go out to the side of the ship. (see the attached image) The location for these aft midships deckhouse MGs always puzzled me in that it looks like it would seriously block forward arcs for the 5-in gun. When the ten MGs were replaced with six 20-mm guns, this location wasn't reused. I believe the searchlight was installed on the former TT foundation.

[Duwayne]

Thanks Rick and Timmy for the DD-440 Ericsson info. I tried to show my dad's ship as I think it was in 1945. Here is a link to my art website where I have the painting posted.
http://duwayne-williams.artistwebsites. ... liams.html

If you look at the full site, you will see that I have also done paintings on my dad's post-war ship, USS Monongahela (AO-42), a fleet-oiler and his brother's Korean War ship USS Helena (CA-75), a heavy cruiser. Please check them out and let me know how close I came. Any comments would be appreciated. I can be emailed at dwilliams1941@gmail.com. Again thanks for your help, advice and comments.

PS: If anyone is interested, I can do custom paintings for them too.

[Rick E Davis]

Duwayne,

Your illustration looks fine for how ERICSSON appeared in late 1942 (during the North Africa invasion) when she had six 20-mm guns and went from Ms 12mod camo to Ms 22 camo. However, as I pointed out on page 38 of this thread, in early 1943 ERICSSON had been updated with two twin 40-mm mounts and further modified in late 1943 (changing location of the Mk 51 directors) ... see below image. She would have remained in this configuration for much of the time until May-June 1945 when she was updated to the Anti-kamikaze mod and sent to the Pacific, too late to see action there. Likely sometime in late 1944, into early 1945, ERICSSON would have been painted in a dazzle scheme, but I don't have a photo of her so painted. She may not have been painted into dazzle, just depends on when her yard periods were. In your illustration it looks like she has 20-mm guns on the aft deckhouse instead of twin 40-mm mounts. Also, the torpedo tube mounts stood a little higher than you have illustrated them.


I don't have a photo of ERICSSON during 1942, but here is a sister unit as she looked in August 1942. The configuration would be the same. Camo may have varied (almost no two Ms 12mod patterns were the same).


ERICSSON on 23 September 1943.

[Tracy White]

However, as I pointed out on page 38 of this thread,

Hey, quick note for everyone who might not know, you can link dirctly to a post by clicking on the "post subject" link at the top of any post, which will take you to the actual link for that post. That Link can then be copied & pasted into a subsequent post, or edited into an earlier one.

[Rick E Davis]

I wondered how people did that.

[Tracy White]

Yeah, I thought I'd pop that in just in case... I stumbled across it on accident once. It came with an upgrade at some point, because some of the earliest posts don't have that. Once thing that's nice about it it is that if a thread gets split or trimmed, the link stays. There are some thread here that I cleaned 5+ pages out here and there and that would change a whole description...that's another reason I made that post.

[David Sandifer]

Rick, do you have photos of the boat cranes (booms? davits?) on the aft deckhouse of a 1940 Benson/Gleaves DD? R/David

[Rick E Davis]

I don't have really good "detail" photos of the crane or that area particularly from onboard, for the earliest BENSON-GLEAVES units. It looks like the kingpost was located on the front corners of the aft deckhouse. Here are five cropped views from larger photos taken at various aspects and during different phases of construction that may help you.

[David Sandifer]

Thank you, Rick. Those close-ups are great! R/David