The Ship Model Forum

by **Filipe Ramires** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:05 pm

Curious thread and more curious is the fact that I started reading today, for work purposes, "Marco Polo - From Venice to Xanadu", by Laurence Bergreen. Interesting book indeed and gives pretty much a good initial account of Venice and Genoa during the 13th Century.

by **Chuck~** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:42 am

The aerial photo shows numerous clear strand lines behind the current coast line. This is often strong evidence that the coast on the whole has risen in elevation in a jerky fashion, or else the sea level in general has fallen. It also suggests much of the area around the mouth of the river has been there for some time, and does not consist of extremely recent deposits.

by **Werner** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:56 pm

Geologically speaking, water can carry a burden of sediment proportional to it's speed. Water from a stream or river slows down as it enters a larger standing body. Therefore, a river drops it's load when it enters a lake or sea. That's why deltas form.

by **kennylibben** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:11 pm

that doesn't imply it was on the coast, just saying the port on the river was...

by **JWintjes** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:38 pm

kennylibben wrote:well in my defense i didn't specifically research Pisan documents, and as i said the focus was Venice.

However i'm still shocked that there is no signs of this in Pisa itself!

i find no proof on wikipedia... it only talks of its naval status which of course it would have being on the river so close to the shore.

You'll never find proof on wikipedia...

But you find this:

wikipedia wrote: Furthermore in the 15th century, access to the sea became more and more difficult, as the port was silting up and was cut off from the sea.

Jorit

by **kennylibben** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:25 pm

well in my defense i didn't specifically research Pisan documents, and as i said the focus was Venice.

However i'm still shocked that there is no signs of this in Pisa itself!

i find no proof on wikipedia... it only talks of its naval status which of course it would have being on the river so close to the shore.

by **JWintjes** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:52 pm

Anonymous wrote:
JWintjes wrote: If you're interested in the coastal change issue, try getting Thompson's "Archaeology and Coastal Change" via interlibrary loan; it's on Britain, but eye-opening.

Jorit

There had been a period not so long ago when the nearest sea coast to the east of London was somewhat to the east of Vladivostok.

Ah Chuck, now you're starting to think in Wernerian dimensions...

Jorit

by **Guest** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:50 pm

JWintjes wrote: If you're interested in the coastal change issue, try getting Thompson's "Archaeology and Coastal Change" via interlibrary loan; it's on Britain, but eye-opening.

Jorit

There had been a period not so long ago when the nearest sea coast to the east of London was somewhat to the east of Vladivostok.

by **JWintjes** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:13 pm

kennylibben wrote:
JWintjes wrote:

As for references, you can take any standard history of Tuscany or of the sea republics.

Jorit
I have, i've studied Tuscan history in Tuscany, Researched the sea republics of renaissance Italy (mainly Venetian Shipbuilding and the fountain of wine), and visited Pisa.... never-once have I come across this information.

Ehm, Kenny, then you didn't research hard enough, it's even in the Wikipedia entry...

Seriously, though, I could recommend some introductory works in German - the usual stuff we try to have our students read it - but unfortunately, as that's not really my field, I don't know about equivalent works in English. I would assume that there's

If you're interested in the coastal change issue, try getting Thompson's "Archaeology and Coastal Change" via interlibrary loan; it's on Britain, but eye-opening.

Jorit

by **JWintjes** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:10 pm

Anonymous wrote:
JWintjes wrote:.

The sea, you know. Quite powerful...

Jorit

It's really not the might of the sea, But the power of land to spread detritus of itself all over what had been the sea, that chokes harbours.

Well, yes indeed.

This was mainly referring to coastal erosion.

Jorit

by **Guest** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:07 pm

Also in many regions of Italy and Greece there is heavy volcano-tectonic control of the coast line. The very elevation of the bedrock at many coastal regions can be shown to have risen or subsided by many feet in the last 2,000 years.

by **kennylibben** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:06 pm

JWintjes wrote:

As for references, you can take any standard history of Tuscany or of the sea republics.

Jorit

I have, i've studied Tuscan history in Tuscany, Researched the sea republics of renaissance Italy (mainly Venetian Shipbuilding and the fountain of wine), and visited Pisa.... never-once have I come across this information.

by **Guest** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:03 pm

JWintjes wrote:.

The sea, you know. Quite powerful...

Jorit

It's really not the might of the sea, But the power of land to spread detritus of itself all over what had been the sea, that chokes harbours.

by **Guest** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:01 pm

kennylibben wrote:well why didn't the city follow it? and do you have any proof other than google earth?

i'm not criticizing you, i'm just curious.

any former Mediterraneans ports gathered their infrastructure and trading network at a time of high trade and great wealth, and lost their access to the sea at a time of low trade and low wealth, so when the recession of the coast really became a problem, there simply wasn't the finance or the expertise to move the infrastructure back to the coast.

Also the first reaction of a city is not to immediately move its infrastructure to follow a receding coast line. Instead it would try drudging and other means to keep a small spur of the sea with it so it can continue to use existing infrastructure. As the sea recedes, the cost of one time re-location often becomes too high, and rise of gradually more competitive new towns and ports on the new sea coast occurs, so when the cost of dredging does eventually become prohibitive, it's too late to move.

by **JWintjes** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:54 pm

kennylibben wrote:well why didn't the city follow it? and do you have any proof other than google earth?

i'm not criticizing you, i'm just curious.

No problem.

One of the main reasons the city didn't follow it was a general decline in the history of the city. Around 1400 (don't have the exact date at hand right now) the city was captured by the Florentines, and by the end of the century Florence had finally gained total control over the city. The silting up of the harbour began at the same time, so they effectively had more than one problem at hand at the same time.

As for references, you can take any standard history of Tuscany or of the sea republics.

Jorit

by **kennylibben** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:45 pm

well why didn't the city follow it? and do you have any proof other than google earth?

i'm not criticizing you, i'm just curious.

by **JWintjes** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:24 pm

kennylibben wrote:i believe that happened much much much longer ago.

If the sea slowly went away, the city would have followed it. It's not going to drop more than a few feet a year, and people would just build new building along it.

Besides, we were talking about Baghdad....

Kenny,

this did not happen "much much much longer ago". Coastal erosion/tilting up of coastal wetland can happen over the course of a couple of decades, let alone centuries.

Try looking up "Romney Marsh" or "Isle of Thanet" - the English coastline in late antique/early medieval times looked markedly different from that of today. The Frisian Islands where we used to spendour family holidays changed their shape over the last 20odd years considerably.

The sea, you know. Quite powerful...

Jorit

by **Werner** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:16 am

Anonymous wrote:
Werner wrote:Baghdad was a seaport at the time the Arabian Nights was composed.

Baghdad was and still is a river port. It hasn't been near the sea in historic times.

I never said it was on the sea. The city was accessible to the oceangoing vessels of the time.

by **kennylibben** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:54 am

i believe that happened much much much longer ago.

If the sea slowly went away, the city would have followed it. It's not going to drop more than a few feet a year, and people would just build new building along it.

Besides, we were talking about Baghdad....

by **JWintjes** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:14 am

Folks, you should really recheck your geography - Pisa is what? 4 miles? away from the sea.

The green stuff you see is an extended area of flatlands accumulated throughout the centuries. If you look beyond these green areas, you can make out the ancient and medieval coastline.

Jorit

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