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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:23 pm 
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Location: Nr Southampton England
I was born in 1964, and lived in Switzerland, however spent much time at my grandparents house
on the River Hamble, near Southampton.
I just about recall as a child seeing = over the top of the Hamble River Peninsula...

the funnels of some of the great liners taking the ebb-tide down Southampton water.

3 red funnels = Queen Mary, 2 red funnels = Queen Elisabeth etc

I recall being taken to see the Queen Mary's final departure - I think I cried-- not out of of sadness ... but because the funnel siren was soooo loud it scared me I guess !!

( I wish I had been a bit older and paid more attention...)

( it was 1967 and I was three ! )_

a few more years of two red funnels ( QE ) , then the odd looking black and white single funnel ( QE 2

alas nowadays the trees have all grown--and even todays giant cruise ship and even the big new Cunarders Queen Mary etc are longer visible, leave alone identifiable by their funnels

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From around 1948 onwards grandfather worked on the Cunard lines transatlantic liners RMS Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth and QE2 along with a cruise ( work) on the Caronia ;

He finished off his at-sea career on P & O Dragon and Leopard on the Southampton-Tangier run in the early 1980's.

As a child and young(er) adult I built models of Queen Mary, ( Revell,_), Queen Elizabeth , QE 2, Canberra, France etc etc from Airfix.

and yet all that time ... my heart was actually captivated by the mythical streamlined mistress of the seas ...

the fabled NORMANDIE liner.

No one I knew or from my family had ever seen the ship, but I was -as a child--always told by that Cunard man - my grandfather -- that the Normandie was the grand-dame of them all,

albeit somewhat flawed-- and meeting tragic end.

For the last 35 years I have--with other modelchums--be-moaned the lack of a good Normandie kit.

OK--so back in 2000 I bought the OLM ( Tom Niccolai ) 1/600 resin kit . simple, with decal window strips and rudimentary PE

http://www.modelships.info/debrisfield/ ... andie.html

it would have produced a fair stand-off model from a 36 inch viewing distance
-but I wanted the level of detail that was offered by Airfix et al

So--unlike clever chaps like Sebastian Watelet ..... and Patrick Camillieri
-who simply got on and scratch-built their Normandie model ships in 1/600....

Maximum Kudos gentlemen! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... ete051.htm http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

I just carried on winging and moaning and hoping....!

and now.... there are 2 kits of the Normandie --one in 1/350 --its good... but huge!

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm

( I have one for sale -- lightly started -- but priced pretty advantageously
(Its length in a glass case ws too much for my better half ...


and one in 1/700 from Blue Ridge Models

-- which will be the subject of this thread of the building of my -hopefully-- we shall see -- razorsharp model of Normandie :big_grin:

Martin Quinn reviewed the 1/700 model here at MW.com

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... mandie.htm


and spotted the first issue --not a deal breaker - but nevertheless worthy of note--the overscale and deep engraved planking

The large deck seam Martin Quinn alluded to in the review --fortunately - is the representation of the expansion joint....

==========================================================================================

I have always dreamed of having a model of Normadie as built- as built ( early version ) a totally balanced outline

Attachment:
early version.jpg
early version.jpg [ 468.3 KiB | Viewed 4586 times ]




- rather than the later post-rebuild with the ( in my opinion) heavy looking huge aft deckhouse-- which albeit is visually very interesting
but from 3/4 rear view can look gawky (in a cool way )

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modelled at speed with her clean wake and minimum water disturbance even at 30 knots

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by. Daryl LeBlanc 20.jpg
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in 1/700 this is a big ship especially compared with my recently completed 1/700 1891 Hood

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so lets get started...-

- ==> well actually I started months ago in concept and theory.

Reasoning that inserting the many dozens of individual PE window frames in the promenade deck would be a nightmare to get filled and painted cleanly

Especially considering that the glazing in this area on the ship was virtually flush-- and in 1/700- scale should be considered to be so.

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I commissioned a huge relief etched PE sheet

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with complete promenade window overlays reaching from the edge of the boat deck to the lower edge of the overhang--with the windows and window dividers etched through

Attachment:
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( on the proviso that it all works as I envisaged and it looks as sharp as a hope it will ...)
this will be available for sale from me .
=====================================================================================
This sheet also has all new handrails --thinner and finer

as well as the vast timber capping rails on on much of the railings.
Attachment:
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This is an excerpt from the design sheets showing the boat deck windows overlays.
Attachment:
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Attachment:
Normandie_PE_JIM_FRONT.jpg
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the entire sheet is gargantuan and has many spares and repeats of everything- partly for experimentation and partly in case of accidents !

well... lets see if it works or it was an expensive experiment! :big_grin:

more soon :wave_1:

JB

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:47 pm 
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Oh wow, this gonna be an interesting build... taking a seat and excited to see Normandie progress! :cool_1:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:05 pm 
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:woo_hoo:

Way to go Jim, a remarkable liner and a total beauty , looking fwd. mate , why not the 1/350 ,as somebody said earlier ,a very intimidating model,mainly by the price :big_grin:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:51 pm 
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I've got beer and popcorn. This should be fun.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:19 am 
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I have drawn up ( with some assistance from UK and Poland! ) a printable paper deck

I have re-worked and recoloured it in dozens of version... (!)

the starting point was a drawn deck blank from a paper model sent to me from Poland-(thank you Artur)

but it was faaaar too butt-endy for my liking --especially in small scale

Attachment:
deck one -a- a.jpg
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enlarged it looks like this; the prime aim is to avoid visible butt ends on the planking
as this makes --in my view - almost any deck look like a chessboard.! :big_grin:

Attachment:
deck 2.jpg
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Once the butt ends were manually removed in paintshop pro I ' ghosted in' with a transparent layer
some colour changes and subtle butt ends and kept repating the process

Attachment:
deck 2.jpg
deck 2.jpg [ 447.52 KiB | Viewed 4482 times ]


Attachments:
deck 3.jpg
deck 3.jpg [ 775.39 KiB | Viewed 4482 times ]

_________________
....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:41 am 
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Great work so far! Did you do your own drawing (and by what program?) and where did you have the etch made?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:04 am 
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This is going to be good! :thumbs_up_1:

One of the Most elegant liners ever.

Made by a great modelling Master.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:34 am 
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Thank you for your confidence in me;

we shall see how I get along...!

meanwhile the decking ;

various printers have been tried, home and commercial laser printers ( too dotty ) copy shop printers still too dotty .


I deliberately drew the lines in grey and brown tones, so as to get away from the harshness of black deck seams--
on the real thing the seams are fairly unobtrusive and the plank butt ends virtually invisible!

Attachment:
MNY68589.jpg
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I estimated the plank width to be around 9 inches -- based on peoples feet in some photos

Attachment:
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My home canon inkjet printer -- using 100gm fine smooth finish paper
has so far given the best results in appearance when placed on the deck of the ship model #

at 1:1 eyesight viewing it looks pretty convincing...
the big zoomed in images are of course a bit unfair! :heh: :cool_2:

below an example of my 1/700 paper deck alongside evergreen 2020 and the kit casting--the planking of which is alas vastly overscale.
had the casting been decked with Evergreen 20/20 or similar--I would have gone with it...
but alas not so hence pursuing the paper decks.

more soon
JB


Attachments:
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Img_5677.jpg
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....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:52 pm 
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Hi Jim -

You may well have this, but in case you don't I hope you find this photo to be of some use or inspiration. One of the few I have seen of her in actual color.

Image

--Scott

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:59 pm 
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Great progress on the planking, Jim. The replacement standard has been that Evergreen 2020, but I agree that it's actually overscale. Your solution is excellent.

Quote:
I deliberately drew the lines in grey and brown tones, so as to get away from the harshness of black deck seams--
on the real thing the seams are fairly unobtrusive and the plank butt ends virtually invisible!


I couldn't agree more.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:36 am 
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Image

Image

I also thought you'd never see them, and I guess it depends on how they laid the deck, but on these pics the butt ends are just as "thick" as the lines between the planks. However, they never make a long straight line for your eye to follow, lie in an irregular pattern and are so very short... in any shot at range they disappear. Ï added them and they are perhaps a bit overscale even for 350-scale, but if you do a fine print and use a lighter brown (not black!! I used a brown wash) you may get a nice subtle result that is only present when you view the model up close and personal... but skipping them is perfectly fine.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:40 am 
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Great Start Jim! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:

I like the colours you used for the deck. They are very close to the photograph. The colour of the seams works great too.

I do like the idea of using paper for the deck. But even very smooth matt paper often still has some 'fuzzy' texture to it, not much but you can 'feel' it. Also in the enlarged photos, the paper planking looks clearly less sharp than the plastic.
Maybe it would be possible to use gloss 'photo'-printpaper to print on? Maybe this has a perfectly smooth appearance? After printing, and even after gluing to the model, it can be flat-coated.

Also, the colour variation and butt-end seams seem to get lost in the print. I can't see them anymore, while the photo of the real thing clearly shows some lighter planks popping out, and some vaguely visible but-ends. Maybe it would be ok to have it just a little less subtle? :) Certainly if you plan to have any paint wash or glaze over it later on.

But of course, photo's can be very deceiving, so maybe it looks just perfect in the flesh. You can certainly judge that best yourself! :)

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Hello Jim
Sublime subject !!! :lol_3: :lol_3: :lol_3:
the most beautiful ship ever built !!!!
I'm sure you have this 2 books:
http://www.aircraft-navalship.com/produit/navires-histoire/2381
https://www.amazon.com/Picture-History-Normandie-190-Illustrations/dp/0486252574/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1543082203&sr=1-4&keywords=ss+normandie
If you need more information ...... :wave_1: :wave_1: :wave_1:
Best regards
Seb


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:02 pm 
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@Sebastian-- good to see you here! :wave_1:
meanwhile..

all is not a straightforward as it may seem; more precisely-

- I have made it not as straightforward as it could have been !

I have been thwarted in my progress somewhat by expansion and contraction issue of resin versus -brass
this is not a new phenomena-- but one that has manifested itself quite seriously!
there might be a cure...

photos and thoughts shortly

JB :wave_1:

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....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:08 pm 
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@ Marijinn

I have been busy refining the decking-- while I agree that in some photo the contrast of the plank colours is visible
the photos sizes on the screen where this is discernible would be equivalent to a 1/96 model (!)

so I maintain that subtlety of tone and nothing too jarring to the eye will work best in 1/700 ( for me )

BUT-- I have improved contrast and definition somewhat and have named this version after you Marijin! :big_grin:
( the actual file is 36 mb and 14000 pixels wide--so it does now print a bit more crisply

Attachment:
final deck .  marijnn 1 huge ..jpg
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as with every model I build--there always seems to be a lot of retrogressive work ( akin to butchery!) before I can forge ahead.
The main hull casting has had various parts removed, decks filled filled and flattened
more of that later

The typical zig-zag seating aft I removed for two-fold reasons;

1) the cast demarcation of seat-to-deck was a bit blurred in the undercut
2) and it is much easier to make a flat deck and then add the seating !

Attachment:
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The funnels are a pretty fine piece of work-- offering delicate internal structure and excellent outline and shapes

BUT-- the casting process on funnels created a slight hollow in the upper non-solid area, and some of the digi-printing lines were faintly visible

Attachment:
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Polyester filler was applied and blocked sanded gently

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On the real thing the funnels were not as smooth as one might think

Attachment:
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I added very gentle vertical texture with a brush prior to layering up some of the red.

tricky things to hold to paint!

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The bridge roof had its wind deflector removed to aid a clean application of my decking as per above
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( after making a rubbing of the wind deflector with graphite dust on a post-it note as as a template for replicating in brass )

The aft funnel base had various vent lids which are rendered quite well on the casting
but are depicted as being on a wood deck base
Attachment:
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Attachment:
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I also removed the vertical bulwark wall, to be replaced in brass strip after paper-decking

Attachment:
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but... the main elephant in the room is still ...(!)..


how to create the satisfactory application of the window overlays without rippling, buckling or damage

The quest thereto continues!

JIM B :wave_1:

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http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:17 am 
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Just as a treat. Footage from Normandie's arrival to New York in 1939. Sadly it would be her last voyage*.

At 2:47 into the video she will cross paths with a 4 stack destroyer.

The last part of the footage is taken already in the streets of New York. Gives you a "feeling" of the times. :big_grin:

Edit. * I'm Not really sure this footage is from her last voyage in late August. I believe this is from the one that started in August the 9th.

https://youtu.be/po2IlbbPH0w


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:04 am 
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Jim,

As brutal as it may seem, it could well be that your only option is to rebuild that deck. By which I mean grind out a bit of it to make room, and cover it with a piece of sheet plastic or something that won't react so poorly to having such pieces of photoetch glued to it. Yes, it's a scary solution (at least to me, given I have almost no experience with resin), but given what I've seen of your past work, it is (probably?) doable.

I do love your models, and always look forward to seeing what absurd details you'll add next.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:04 am 
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Jim, can you account for any reason why the manufacturer presented such overscale deck planking in the first instance?

Terry (Caravellarella)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:18 am 
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That decking looks great Jim! I guess there won't be any paint washes or filters over it anymore?

Good progress by the way! Autumn clearly has set in. :big_grin:
Those funnels look great!

:thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:09 am 
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This is a duplicate of the posting in the main forum
( duplicated here for greater permanence )
I have been pre-occupied with the issues of differential rates of thermal expansion of the hull/ brass and the possible consequences of applying long lengths of brass superstructure to a resin hull

Joins in the PE would seem to be the obvious answer--with the immediate potential of it looking awful at worst--or being a challenge at best to disguise the joins in a dead flat metal surface with soft fillers..

I have been busy fellow experimenting.
This is the current status quo-- and if I am lucky-- I might just get away with it!
========================================================================

( I have a spare Nomandie hull --hence I can afford the relentless experimentation ! :big_grin: :big_grin: )

I had previously found that the cast window indents made it problematic to apply the brass as pressure applied when gluing the PE would cause the window dividers ( mullions) to distort inwards,--further the real ship was nearly flush-glazed on the side windows
(and I had wondered as to how I might replicate that and glaze them ) :scratch:
I arrived at my solution;

==> simply fill all the castings window apertures( on the outboard sides only)
That way the brass would be fully supported and the " glazing" would be nearer 'flush'

Attachment:
P1230542.jpg
P1230542.jpg [ 787.41 KiB | Viewed 3724 times ]



Having taken varied sources of advice I bought some " canopy" glue --used by large scale Radio-control aircraft modellers for affixing canopies etc to a wide range of materials, operated in often widely differing temperatures in often adverse conditions( crash-landing ? !)
on a model that is inherently flexible and exposed to often violent manoeuvres- so I guess it is flexible.!

Canopy glue review online; ( from a Model-railroader dealing with long brass PE pieces on resin/ plastic...( sounded familiar!)
http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2013/ ... -glue.html

I applied ( yet another!) piece of the test-promenade windows strips


Now then...

-- I have read all that has been said here, taken ( and ignored !) advice from knowledgeable friends
and paid attention to a damnedly clever non-modeller chum of mine,
...who is akin to Stephen Hawkins when he started on the molecular structures of resin and brass and other metals etc
( I did listen but he sort of lost me after a while )...

and I too thought about it long and hard to the detriment of a normal sleep pattern...( almost! :cool_1: )

So this where I am now; ( dedicated to my craft!! )


I had tried rigid adhesives ( CA ), I tried araldite 90-second epoxy ( very good--but I was too slow in positioning / applying adhesive etc)
so I tried the canopy glue

I cooled my model-room to around 10 degrees Centigrade ( reasoning that my model will not be exposed voluntarily to any lower temperatures than this )
Normally in the UK winter simply switching the radiator off would do the trick, but the weather chose this last to be unseasonably mild,
so I cooled the room with a portable aircon unit (!!)

I applied the brass using a shaped and sharpened toothpick ( bamboo==> does not go soggy )
to the underside of the brass as I went, cleaning up with distilled water on a paint-brush with a paper towel behind.
I had the model on its ( 1920's teak! ) wood build plate--held horizontally in a multi-angle vice to allow gravity to assist in positioning the PE.

Attachment:
P1230541.jpg
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The glue is high-grab-but movable for a while.
Now the testing;


So...==> Having let the glue cure overnight in the cold ;

I moved the model to our warm heated living room--placed high up on top bookshelf - ( heat rises!)
and left it there for the day
==> as expected or ( as I had hoped /guessed!) nothing happened --the resin expanding and taking the brass with it.

After 12 hours in the heat I took it back up to the model-room for the cold overnight period.

I am now in the third night of repeating this cycle and all appears to be well with no apparent movement, no rippling in the cold or any sign of brass tearing or any sign of glue failure.

I shall do this for another week or two --just to be sure,,...

I do not want to spend hundreds of hours building my Normandie to the best of my ability to be let down
by a fundamental issue that would break my heart and will!

I will report in future findings
Do read the Railway modeller's thoughts and summary linked above
to date - I have to agree with everything he said :thumbs_up_1: !
so far--so good !

my glue I used --made in the UK
Attachment:
P1230544.jpg
P1230544.jpg [ 536.16 KiB | Viewed 3724 times ]

_________________
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http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

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