Calling all Sims-class DD fans

[Rick E Davis]

Fred only built models of the SIMS class units involved with the Battle of Santa Cruz, October 1942.

As for configurations of USS MUSTIN (DD-413) with four twin 40-mm mounts. See attached.



USS WAINWRIGHT (DD-419) had two twin 40-mm mounts and THREE single 40-mm, not five single 40-mm mounts, installed on a platform where her aft torpedo tubes mount was located from July 1944 to late in 1944 for operations in the MED. In late 1944, the temporary single 40-mm mounts were removed and her aft torpedo tubes were returned. When initially installed with the three single 40-mm mounts, WAINWRIGHT was painted in Ms 22 camouflage. Later she was painted in dazzle. See attached.

[Steve]

Interesting with single 40mm mounts in the 3rd pic both P/S,

[SeanF]

Interesting with single 40mm mounts in the 3rd pic both P/S,

And center. They're also there in the second picture. I never knew the USN used 40MM singles on ships. Between that and the great looking dazzle scheme I'm starting to want to build this one...

- Sean F.

[David Sandifer]

Sean, don't forget Buckley class DEs with single 40mm amidships, including Fogg, Foss, Fowler, and Solar.

[David Sandifer]

Rick, thank you for the overheads of Mustin and Wainwright. All is now clearly defined.

Might this AUG1945 Mustin configuration - Mk 25 radar antenna, four twin 40s, and no torpedo tubes - complete the Sims class evolution?

Is Wainwright's arrangement of a pair of twin 40s on the after deckhouse and three single 40s replacing a torpedo tube mount amidships one-of-a-kind?

[Rick E Davis]

Yes the USS MUSTIN August 1945, Anti-Kamikaze configuration was the last one for the SIMS class. As it was, MUSTIN was the only member of her class to actually receive the mod. The SIMS class survivors were part of the "now obsolete" pre-WWII built destroyers declared surplus at the end of WWII and were disposed of. So no other surviving units (five units out of the class of 12, were lost during WWII) were given any upgrades post-WWII when the sisters to MUSTIN returned to stateside.

Yes USS WAINWRIGHT with three single 40-mm guns was a "one-only" conversion. When the German Air Force made a determined effort in early 1944 to attack the allied fleets off Italy and around the MED, the "temporary" addition of more AA guns was authorized on a DesDiv basis for such units assigned to operate in the MED. Destroyer Divisions 13, 14, 21, and 25 were so authorized as were many DE's. All of these were early BENSON-GLEAVES units except for USS WAINWRIGHT, the DesDiv Flag for DesDiv 25, making her the solo SIMS class unit authorized with this upgrade.

On the BENSON-GLEAVES class units, a temporary platform for four additional 20-mm guns replaced the aft torpedo tubes bank. An additional and separate mod authorized a pair of singe 40-mm mounts added on the main deck aft of the temporary platform and ahead of the two twin 40-mm mounts. In total at least 15 BENSON-GLEAVES class units received the platform for four 20-mm guns and at least 13 units also had the two single 40-mm mounts. The augmented armament was installed at either NYNY or by USS VULCAN (AR-5) at Oran. Few photos exist of these units so armed and verification of some units listed in Armament Summaries can't be verified with a photo(s), particularly for the difficult to see single 40-mm mounts, only via textual records.

The best set of images I have come across, are of USS NIBLACK (DD-424). A series of 14 March 1944, aerial views shows her after the temporary platform for four 20-mm guns was added. See first image. Then another series of photos taken on 9 April 1944, shows that the two single 40-mm mounts have been added, requiring the relocation of two K-Guns further aft. See second image and third close-crop image from the same photo.

[Dick J]

Yes the USS MUSTIN August 1945, Anti-Kamikaze configuration was the last one for the SIMS class. As it was, MUSTIN was the only member of her class to actually receive the mod. The SIMS class survivors were part of the "now obsolete" pre-WWII built destroyers declared surplus at the end of WWII and were disposed of. So no other surviving units (five units out of the class of 12, were lost during WWII) were given any upgrades post-WWII when the sisters to MUSTIN returned to stateside.

Friedman indicates that Morris and Russel also got the mod, though it is probable that they had only been started but were still incomplete when the war ended. Incomplete mods of the "surplus" older ships at war's end usually resulted in the ship being written off as a "constructive total loss", a description that is mostly misunderstood. Many interpret it to mean "damaged beyond any hope of repair". The actual meaning is that the cost of the repair/reconfiguration exceeded the value of the ship to the navy. Morris suffered major kamikaze damage late in the war. Considering that some ships were repaired after losing their entire bow, Morris's damage was far less, so "unrepairable" is unlikely. Had the war continued, she would have been repaired (destroyers would still have been needed in large numbers), and being in the yard that late in the war, would have certainly received the kamikaze upgrade.

[Rick E Davis]

Dick is right that USS RUSSELL (DD-414) and MORRIS (DD-417) "started" their mod work to the Anti-Kamikaze configuration (USS RUSSELL during a major overhaul at Seattle and MORRIS along with battle damage repairs at HPNY), but neither unit completed the upgrade when work was cancelled at war's end and they were decommissioned and stricken in late 1945. Eventually both were sold for scrap. Four of the five remaining SIMS class units were used in the Bikini A-bomb tests.

I was only referring to USS MUSTIN as being the solo unit of the SIMS class that actually completed the Anti-Kamikaze mod.

[bwross11]

Greetings all,

Have a color question for the board. My USS Walke project has reached the painting stage for the hull. I have a sonar dome extended and here in lays the question. Does anyone have any idea, pictures, documents that tell us the color of the dome? Was it hull red, primer grey, steel, have a window?

All constructive thoughts gladly accepted.

[Rick E Davis]

Bruce,

Sonar domes evolved during and after WWII, but for USS WALKE (DD-416), she likely had one of the early domes. The pre-WWII built destroyers actually had TWO different frequency sonars installed. The pair were installed one on either side of the keel and were retracted into the hull when not in use. Fixed sonar domes were introduced just prior to the "official" US entry in WWII so that a sonar could be operated at higher speeds. But only one dome over one sonar was installed, likely for the SIMS class, on the portside. The early domes were steel and didn't have specific "windows". However, the design of the dome was such that performance was best forward and looking aft was not done due to prop noise. Post-WWII introduced rubber domes (which took awhile to develop ones that didn't come apart during operational use). The domes were painted more or less like the hull (some treatments applied to the hull before the top coat wasn't applied).

I don't have and have not come across photos of the domes on SIMS class destroyers. But, I feel confident that they would have been the same or similar to those installed on early BENSON-GLEAVES class units. Here is a drawing of the "Budd type" dome that I came across in textual records. The drawing is dated October 1941, so it likely was used on SIMS class destroyers. Other "types" of domes were installed, but this appeared after WALKE was lost. Also, I have attached a photo of an early dome (likely Budd) installed on a Repeat-GLEAVES class destroyer.

[David Sandifer]

Technically, from Rick's plan above, the color is brown oxide. Practically, for me, it's hull red. Note the John Robert Barrett color drawings at the beginning of many NavSource DD photo entries.

[Rick E Davis]

The coatings/paint instructions on the sonar dome drawing are for the "as delivered" part to the USN. The USN would paint the dome as desired. I came across photos of the sonar dome on USS PLUNKETT (DD-431) that was damaged entering port in the UK in early 1942 and hitting some sort of obstruction. See attached images. To repair the broken dome once they returned to Boston Navy Yard, they stripped the dome of paint and welded a replacement section that was broken off.

There are a couple of other notes on the dome that maybe confusing. For the sonar to operate properly, the dome was initially filled with water, then after issues with the water freezing, it was filled with an antifreeze mixture.

[bwross11]

Interesting background information, I love this stuff!

Then that settles it, red lead it is, too easy.

thanks again for the feedback.

[bwross11]

Greetings all,

I could use some help. I'm trying to discern the proper colors for my USS Walke project and I'm a bit confused. She will be in MS12mod as she appeared at Guadalcanal. I know from sources that the hull will be 5-S and 5-O in the pattern you see in the picture.

Now, I have seen a few color pictures that would suggest that the 5-S, in partcular, was infact carried up onto the superstructure on some ships. The more that I stare at this picture the more convinced I am that this is the case here. So, does the diagram below look right??



I'm particularly puzzled regarding the red designators. Looking at the entire picture I have (apparently way too big to post here) it appears that the 5-S was carried over major superstructures and the 5-O/5-H was reserved for everything else.

Opinions/thoughts?

[Rick E Davis]

Bruce,

I'm not sure that the darker color is 5-S on the SIMS class destroyers. The Atlantic Fleet replaced 5-S with 5-N (ltr dated 4 November 1941, which also replaced the original Ms 12 with Ms 12R ... http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... CL-41.html ... and ... http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... tCamo.html ...) pretty much at the same point as Ms 12R(mod) was adapted. The puzzle is that some units in the Atlantic Fleet are known to have used 5-S paint. The priority for the ships to have the new Ms 12R(mod) scheme applied appear to be the large units. It is harder to track how the destroyers were painted.

Another consideration, even if the SIMS class units that came to the Pacific in early 1942 were painted with 5-S, with no supply of 5-S was available in the Pacific Fleet once 5-N and Ms 11 (renamed Ms 21) was adapted, even with the same pattern, it would be more likely that the pattern would be touched-up/repainted with 5-N paint.

A lot of sources of some age, "assume" that 5-S was used because the original spec of Ms 12R(mod) called for its use. But, those sources missed the revision from 5-S to 5-N.

[bwross11]

Rick,

Thanks for the correction and follow up information.

With all that aside, the original question still stands. Does it look like to you, and everyone else out there, like the colors of the hull are carried up onto the main superstructure? I don't do great with color hues in black and white pictures and am seriously seeking inputs. To my old eyes, it does look like the colors carry up but I want opinions.

thanks
Bruce

[Rick E Davis]

Bruce,

Your guess is as good as mine. But, I "think" that the dark areas on the hull are 5-N, at least going up from the waterline. As for carrying 5-N up onto the superstructure, that is possible. There were so many variations with Mk 12R(mod), that knowing for certain is almost impossible in all cases. However, look at this image taken at the same time at MINY. A change in perspective shows that the hull 5-N has variation in tone from yard/crew painting. Plus, this aspect seems to show that the dark areas at the top of the hull appear lighter compared to the profile view. The difference in lighting likely accounts for this.

Also, this aspect shows that the 5-O on the superstructure on and below the forward 20-mm tub, appears to match the 5-O on the 5-in mounts forward.

[Fliger747]

To toss in my two bits (twenty five cents to the youngsters) judging the angle and lighting I'm opining that the hull and superstructure carry the same tone densities.

Speaking of Benson/ Gleaves, I recall seeing a raft of them at PSNS in the mid sixties that pale mothball fleet grey.

[Timmy C]

I wouldn't trust my eyeballs to judge with such high contrast in the surrounding areas to confuse them.

I screenshotted each of the "dark" colours and labelled them below. As you can see, the 5-S? on the bridge bulwarks actually match the 5-O much more closely than it does the hull 5-S. Even for the same colour in the same location (bridge bulwark 5-S?), there are noticeable variances.


One could probably cherry pick another area for each of those categories to emphasize or de-emphasize the differences between them.
All I'd trust my eyes to say is that there are darks and there are lights. Whether the darks are the same is not at all easy to determine.

[bwross11]

My thanks for the thoughts and observations. Much appreciated.

I guess, this basically comes down to the "paint it how you want it" based on my observations and if anyone calls it out as wrong. fall back on the old IPMS code cop reply....."Prove its wrong".