Calling all Lion-class, QM, & Tiger ("Splendid Cat") BC fans

[HMSInvisible]

Hi Maurice - more photos of the build would be lovely.

Andy

[DariusP]

I don't know British turret designations, but this structure sits just behind turret #3. In later photos, I see it built up about half the height of the stack, but it looks solid. In 1914, the bottom platform looks like it has splinter shields with the top being canvas railings. Can anyone help think of a better way to piece this? I have doubts about the fleixbleness and durability of these photo etch pieces. I'm thinking of replicating them with thin plastic sheet?

What you have there is a searchlights platform drdoom and I can't think of any reason why PE can't be replaced by plastic card replica.

[GMG4RWF]

I don't know of larger models but I brought picks of my 2400 scale - Lions & Tiger (the tan & brown I traded for) - sorry, the glare from the White makes the detail hard to see.

[mauricejob]

Photos: I hadn't included other progress photos as they look pretty old-hat, but here are some showing the hull construction

[Guest]

I realise some time has elapsed since your post, but I have just joined.
The attached photos are dated 1928 but show what I believe to be a caged aerial. On my plans there is a "guard WT" in about this location

Hi
The 'Guard WT' you have on your plan, and show in your images, is the mesh 'screen' around the aeriel base where the aeriel enters the ship. It is a cylinder shape of metal strips with expended mesh or similar to stop a men touching it as it gave shocks when in use. (It is just outboard of the outer picket boat in your photo)

This is different than the aeriels aloft that use 'spreaders' to keep the strands apart.

I've never heard the term 'caged aeriels' used in reference to RN dreadnoughts before.... unless it is the foremost item [guard WT/mesh 'screen']?

To answer DrDooms other question, at launch it seems to be a mid grey.

The 'racetrack' shaped structure seems to be a searchlight/searchlight control and/or night defence structure.

Rudders: yes, they were inclined.. it seems to have been a battlecruiser characteristic as they needed to fit the mechanics around the top of the shaft within the narrowing hull at the stern... to fit them in they needed to incline the rudders.

[TCC]

Interesting that the funnels of Tiger are different diameters, what are the diameters in feet? Tiger had 39 boilers in 5 rooms of equal length, they were right across the ship with no centreline bulkhead. Boileroom 'A' had 7 boliers, the other 4 rooms had 8 per room.

I spotted that the three funnels are different diameters, on the model they are 56mm, 52mm and 53mm

That would work out as the first funnel was fed by A & B (7 + 8 = 15), the remaining boilers equally between the two thinner funnels which would be 12 per funnel.

It looks to be the start of a good model. I like the idea of the tipping the edge of tape with filler for the plate line. I used paint for some of my plating (I've built Lion)

P.s Maurice, you mention 'Y' turret. Is that marked down on your plans?

[mauricejob]

Turret nomenclature on British ships was by convention "A" for'ard with "B" superfiring. Aft turrets were, from the stern "Y", then "X" if superfiring, "P" and "Q" would be midships. In Tiger then you have "A" "B" "Q" and "Y". Inflexible, Australia, New Zealand etc had "P" and "Q" midships on either beam.

In the book "The Lost Photographs" the aft turrets of Tiger are variously labelled as Q and X or as P and Y

I have John Robert's article (Warship Monthly, I think) titled "The Design and Construction of the Battlecruiser TIGER" in which he labels the turrets abaft the funnels as "Q" and "Y". I believe this, hence my labelling, to be correct, for British ships at least.

[mauricejob]

Initial paint done, the grey is too light I think. The basic structure is complete ports are drilled ( I have made so far some 60 portholes; ie about half) and all machinery is fitted.

[GMG4RWF]

Turret nomenclature on British ships was by convention "A" for'ard with "B" superfiring. Aft turrets were, from the stern "Y", then "X" if superfiring, "P" and "Q" would be midships. In Tiger then you have "A" "B" "Q" and "Y...labelled as Q and X or as P and Y...abaft the funnels as "Q" and "Y". I believe this, hence my labelling, to be correct, for British ships at least.

correct - the 1st 2 turrets of both classes would be "A" & "B" while the aft was "Y". The mid turret on Lion was "Q" (several references at Jutland mention the near fatal hit to "Q" turret and flooding of her mid main magazine) on Lion its debatable, it was in nearly the same position but superfired so technically it was "X" turret as it was super firing - the same is true of the IJN Kongo's (which were nearly the same) as well as the German Derfflinger class.

[TCC]

Turret nomenclature on British ships was by convention "A" for'ard with "B" superfiring. Aft turrets were, from the stern "Y", then "X" if superfiring, "P" and "Q" would be midships. In Tiger then you have "A" "B" "Q" and "Y". Inflexible, Australia, New Zealand etc had "P" and "Q" midships on either beam.

In the book "The Lost Photographs" the aft turrets of Tiger are variously labelled as Q and X or as P and Y

I have John Robert's article (Warship Monthly, I think) titled "The Design and Construction of the Battlecruiser TIGER" in which he labels the turrets abaft the funnels as "Q" and "Y". I believe this, hence my labelling, to be correct, for British ships at least.

Hi Maurice & GMG4...
I asked you about Y turret as it was contrary to how I understood it (and I don't claim to know everything). In RN terminology, I've always believed the turrets were termed:

Turrets at the stem would start A, then B and (if fitted) C,
Midships would start P, then Q and (if fitted) R,
Aft would start at X, then Y and (if fitted) Z

The Lions, Queen Mary, (and I'm including Tiger in with them) had ABQ and X. I can also cite J Roberts page Nos. [P92 of his 'Battlecruisers' for instance].

However, I'm now pretty certain there are quite involved rules that covers not only what 'letter' the main-armament turrets are termed, they cover the naming of the decks and the latter affects what the former are called. The following RN ships all had a single turret aft:

Renown class had: A, B & Y
Courageous class had: A & Y
Lion class, Queen Mary & Tiger had A, B, Q & X
The 12in battlecruisers had A, P, Q & X

I believe the location of the masts affected the naming of the decks, and the naming of the decks affected what letter would be applied to the turret on it. I don't know these rules but have had hints and clues but this would explain why a single main-armament turret aft can be termed both X and Y depnding on how the ship is arranged.

p.s. I think the grey is OK. You don't want it too dark.

[GMG4RWF]

...Turrets at the stem would start A, then B and (if fitted) C,
Midships would start P, then Q and (if fitted) R,
Aft would start at X, then Y and (if fitted) Z
The Lions, Queen Mary, (and I'm including Tiger in with them) had ABQ and X. I can also cite J Roberts page Nos. [P92 of his 'Battlecruisers' for instance]...
Renown class had: A, B & Y
Courageous class had: A & Y
Lion class, Queen Mary & Tiger had A, B, Q & X
The 12in battlecruisers had A, P, Q & X...explain why a single main-armament turret aft can be termed both X and Y depending on how the ship is arranged...

I believe it was more "tradition" than "Rules" and the mid turrets worked more like the aft turrets - "Q" 1st & "P" forward of "Q" - no (British) BB was built with 3 mid turrets (not sure on cruisers etc... most Brit AC's at this time only had 2 anyway {A & Y}.) & the only Brit BB with 3 aft turrets was Agincourt who threw the whole thing out the porthole & named hers for days of the week (not sure which way though - I think "A" position was "Sunday" but it may have been "Monday") anyway The Lions had a definitive 2 forward (A & B), 1 midships (Q) which couldn't fire aft & 1 aft (Y) the crux is that Tiger had the same physical position but the mid turret was up a deck with a clear aft section and could fire aft - so technically that made it an "X" turret in kind of a "Q" position - so it could be considered as either - if you look at my pick above though you will see that it was actually slightly further aft and abaft all of the funnels which may it an "aft" turret - I don't know which the Brits labeled it - I've always referred to it a "X" because it can fire aft (same as with the Kongos & Derflingers). A single aft turret should be "Y" unless there's a labeling error "X" for superimposed turrets (not sure how multiple main deck turrets were labeled - but these were in other Navies - like the SMS Nassau or IJN Settsu.)

...they cover the naming of the decks and the latter affects what the former are called...I believe the location of the masts affected the naming of the decks, and the naming of the decks affected what letter would be applied to the turret on it...

There are strict rules on how decks are numbered but have nothing to do with Masts or the naming of the turrets - simply; the weather deck (the main deck seen externally) is the "Main" deck - or Deck "1", any deck below this is numbered downward "2", "3", "4" etc... any deck above this is an "upper deck" and numbered in the opposite direction with a "0" in front of it - so the deck directly above the "Main" deck is the "01" deck followed by the "02" deck above that and "03", "04" etc... (this is true of flush deckers - the "Main" deck may vary between the "forecastle" or "quarter" decks with non-flush deck ships per country though.)

[mauricejob]

New progress pictures
I changed the grey, making it a little 'greener' rather than darker. I have seen models of battlecruisers at the start of WW1 and they are very dark, too dark I suspect.
The mast spreader or 'starfish' was a bit of work, but is looking ok. Next job are turrets

Right on target for Dec 15th launch. I have had motors running but need to beef up the power controller.

"TCC" what scale is your 'Lion'?

[mauricejob]

Turret Designations; For "Tiger" I guess I have the definitive answer. The barbettes are marked AB and Q on the Main deck plan. The fourth barbette is below the main deck and I hadn't looked, but it is marked as "X" on the fo'c'sle deck plan. This is odd, as it does not of course belong on that deck but the plan convention is to show internal and external detail of the deck in question and the outline of the next deck down. The fo'c'sle deck shows "A barbette" and the shelter deck shows "B barbette" and "Q barbette" (The barbette is the armoured trunk below the turret) with the outline of the fo'c'sle deck. In the case of "X", it is labelled in the turret or gunhouse, ie different to the others. So I missed it, I don't have deck plans below the main deck and it's not marked on the profile.

The plans I have are those drawn by the Admiralty and issued to six shipyards for quoting. There are a lot of assumptions and omissions of detail that are useful to a modeller, but obviously not needed for the purpose of the shipyard to quote. Add to this the changes made between original design and as built and I have to make a lot of guesses, based on the photographs I have. This need for research is part of the challenge of this ship. Note in the above photo of the model showing the shelter deck, the dimensions of this are based on photographs in the book "Clydebank Battlecruisers" showing the ship in the fitting out basin, viewed I think from the 150ton crane.

[GMG4RWF]

...are marked AB and Q on the Main deck plan. The fourth...is marked as "X" ...

As I said - I don't think there have ever been any "Formal" rules on turret designations - only tradition - these plans your looking at - are they the builders plans? if so that's understandable, civilians (in Britain as in America) would be unlikely to know - or care - of/for Naval conventions & label them what "they thought" they should be.

[TCC]

Turret Designations; For "Tiger" I guess I have the definitive answer. The barbettes are marked AB and Q on the Main deck plan. The fourth barbette is below the main deck and I hadn't looked, but it is marked as "X" on the fo'c'sle deck plan. This is odd, as it does not of course belong on that deck but the plan convention is to show internal and external detail of the deck in question and the outline of the next deck down. The fo'c'sle deck shows "A barbette" and the shelter deck shows "B barbette" and "Q barbette" (The barbette is the armoured trunk below the turret) with the outline of the fo'c'sle deck. In the case of "X", it is labelled in the turret or gunhouse, ie different to the others. So I missed it, I don't have deck plans below the main deck and it's not marked on the profile.

Well at least you found it. The model looks good! I like the conning tower area!

Re: the grey: I always think the dark grey models look odd, but that is personal taste.

You have to take into account the phenomenom that as the model is smaller than the original, if you want an accurate tone you need to make the paint a touch lighter in tone. You can't use the same shade of grey as the original it they then become 'too dark'.

What scale is yours, Mo? Mine is 1:144, it's 57-ish inches long. As soon as I think of moving it something breaks off. I made things with this in mind so things like the flagstaffs have 'give' in them before breaking. Yours looks to be quite big. What year or era are you depicting? With the mainmast you've made, I take it you are going for 'as built' or early WW1?

[mauricejob]

The plans I have are the "To Be Built" and were drawn by Admiralty designers and are dated 1911. They were then issued to the Shipyards. From this point, things start to change, the most obvious changes between "design" and "As built" are the Main mast (changed from pole to tripod); funnel and bridge (height increased); searchlight tower added between Nos 1 and 2 funnels; and locations of torpedo and secondary directors. There were many internal changes. There are also many omissions, eg the boats, all rigging of the derrick post and funnels etc because no doubt the shipyards would have "known" what was expected.

I am building her as commissioned because I think that is the purest design, though I cannot disagree with a comment that the later rig gave her a somewhat more purposeful or aggressive look. The scale is 1:96 (I had the plans produced by NMM at this scale; the originals are 1:48) We discussed scale many years ago in NZ and settled on 1:96 or 1:100 as a good universal scale which allows for small ships to be radio controlled (I am doing a tug which is 1-foot long) up to battleships which, while big, are manageable. And they sit IN the water and look imposing. Tiger is 88 inches or 2300mm long and will weigh approx. 80lb or 36kg, depending on how I trim the model. It has 10kg of concrete in the lower hull, and the battery is 4.4kg.

Re the conning tower, the fun stuff comes now, search lights, railings etc. I enjoy detailing

[GMG4RWF]

I am building her as commissioned because I think that is the purest design

true but the later mods also represent improvements through operational experience.

[tjstoneman]

I'm not sure she ever had a tripod mainmast - all the photos I've seen show a pole mainmast and a tripod foremast.

[mauricejob]

As built, Tiger had a single mast (mainmast) and derrick post that was the same height as the funnels. These are the labels I have seen in various documents, but it is another debate on "rules" of labelling ship parts.

I agree, changes were made for operational reasons, but dare I say it, not all give aesthetic improvements

[TCC]

Turrets at the stem would start A, then B and (if fitted) C,
Midships would start P, then Q and (if fitted) R,
Aft would start at X, then Y and (if fitted) Z

I'm correcting this in light of new information that has come to hand:

The foreward main armament positions onn RN ships were designated A, B and any additional positions were termed either X or Q depending on what deck? the mount was placed on. The Nelsons had an X turret, the Dido class cruisers had a Q.

I can't recall any RN ships with a 3rd main armament position amidships? ... and the only ship I can name with a 3rd MA position aft was Agincourt. Janes in WW1 depicts her with AB, PQ, XYZ turrets but the official designations for her MA positions was the numerals 1-7. No doubt this was due to her foreign origin.

With ships with one main armament position aft, the turret would be termed either X or Y depending on whether there was a turret amidships or not: the addition of such a turret altered a 'Y' turret to an 'X'.