The Ship Model Forum

We are planning to release a WWII USS Cleveland class kit.
And hope to find as many pics with details as we can through internet and from you guys.
Thanks.

I have questions about "target designators" and "target designation transmitters" (TDTs) - are they the same thing?

Looking at the blueprints for the USS Cleveland CL-55 I find the following:

Main battery designator - O4 level P&S Frame 57 - Main Battery Fire Control station
Main battery target designator - O3 level P&S ~8" aft Frame 91 - After Main Battery Fire Control station
Secondary battery designator - O5 level P&S ~Frame 61 -Air Defense Forward station
Secondary battery target designator - O4 level P&S Frame 91 - Air Defense Aft station

These target designators are separate from the gun directors (main, secondary and 40mm) and the air lookout/sky lookout stations. No Mark/Mod is given for any of these but the drawing is different for the main battery and secondary battery target designators.

The CL-64 and CL-89 Book of General Plans show target designators at:

Main battery target designator periscope - 79'? ABL P&S Frame ~8" forward of Frame 57 - Forward Air defense station
Main battery target designator - 72' 9" ABL P&S Frame ~8" forward of Frame 57 - Forward Fire Control station
Main battery target designator periscope - 72' 1" ABL P&S ~Frame 92 1/2 - After Air Defense station
Main battery target designator? - 65' 3" ABL P&S ~Frame 92 1/2 - After Fire Control station
Secondary battery target designator - 79' 7" ABL P&S ~Frame 60 1/2 - Forward Air Defense station
Secondary battery target designator - 72' 1" ABL P&S Frame 90 - After Air Defense station

Again, the main and secondary battery designators are draw differently and no Mk/Mod number is given. The main battery designators are enclosed within armored shells with the periscope coming out of the top. This is shown in the outboard profile views.

****

I have seen pictures of a Mk 1 Target Designator and photos of the superstructure of battleships about 1940 that show a Mk 1 Target Designator (attached photo) and another type of target designator on a heavy cruiser.

A book of shipboard electronics from 1953 lists a Mk 11 Target Designator Transmitter .

The USS Little Rock CLG-4 had Mk 23 Mod 0 TDTs on the O5 level. I have attached a drawing of the Mk 23 and a photo of the name tag off of the Little Rock's TDT (thanks to Art Tilley). These were installed in 1959 or 1960.

I found a repair and maintenance manual for a Mk 24 TDT dated 1970 on Amazon Books.

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I have found two references saying that "lookouts" could supply target information to the gunfire control system (GFCS). Another reference said "lookouts" used the TDTs. Another reference said TDTs could provide target information directly to the GFCS.

I suspect that the lookout would look through binoculars attached to the TDT and align the target into the view by rotating the TDT about the vertical axis to set the bearing and raising the arm carrying the binoculars about the horizontal axis to set the elevation. Then he pushed a button on the hand grip to send the information to the GFCS computer.

Then I suspect that a director would be slewed to the bearing and elevation to find the target for the guns.

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To complicate things some references talk about a "target designator" within the GFCS below decks in gun plot. This target designator was a console with a radar display and a joystick to allow the operator to place a circle around a target blip and press a button to assign that target to a director. Diagrams show this traget designator could recieve target information from a director or from a "lookout."

Further confusing the issue, I found a photo of a "target designator" that was a box on the bulkhead in CIC that had bearing and elevation readouts.

So the term "target designator" is pretty ambiguous.

****

Does anyone have more information about "target designators" or "target designation transmitters" and how they were used? Any corrections to what I posted above?

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

Hi Phil-
I have a set of original USS CLEVELAND general arrangement paper plans. If there is something specific you need, let me know and I can try to photo or scan it (I would have to find a scanner big enough to accommodate a complete sheet).
Mike

Mike,

Thanks. I have the original USS Cleveland CL-55 general arrangement paper plans from Scale Shipyard plus the (mostly) complete set of Cleveland blueprints from the National Archives. These are all for the original round armored pilot house design.

What I have not been able to find are blueprints for the square bridge design (USS Vincennes CL-64 and later) superstructure. In addition to the bridge/pilot house modifications there are significant changes to the after superstructure. The aft port/starboard twin 5"/38 gun mounts #54 and #55 were moved aft about eight feet. This caused a significant rearrangement of features of the after deck house. The 20mm and 40 mm guns were in different positions (and different numbers) in the square bridge version than on the original Cleveland. There were two different types of aircraft cranes. The boat cranes were eliminated from the later designs.

The USS Miami CL-98 Book of General Plans has low detail plan views, but it doesn't show the exact positions of doors, vents and other structural details of the deck house sides that the blueprints show. Details of positions of objects on the decks (vents, hatches, etc.) and of the objects themselves are not shown in the general plans. Only the blueprints that show how to construct these things have sufficient detail for accurate large scale modeling.

****

The Archivists at the National Archives have not been able to find any of the superstructure blueprints for the square bridge version of the Cleveland class. I am afraid they have been lost.

NOTE: There are many blueprints for the latter version in the Archives (4341 total, but some are duplicates). However, these are only for plumbing, interior ventilation, electrical wiring and such. No deck house drawings! What I don't know is if any of the original paper blueprints survive in the Archives, or any where else.

I have the index reels for all Cleveland class blueprints on microfilm in the Archives. When all pages are printed single sided the stack is 4 1/2 inches high - something like 1500 pages. 8971 blueprints in all. But none for the square bridge superstructure!

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

I am currently looking at a skywave 1/700 model of the Cleveland. Is this a good quality and is it worth the 60USD price tag? Also, how much difference, if any, was there between ships of the class? I want to paint it in the measure 32/1D the uss houston had worn so wasn't sure if I had to do any modification to make it work.

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Complete:
1/700 USS California BB-44 (Trumpeter)
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-57 (Trumpeter)

in progress:
1/700 USS Montana BB-67
1/700 USS Houston CL-81

Waiting Drydock
1/700 USS Guam CB-2
1/700 Sigourney DD-643
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-49

Frankly, no, it's not worth $60 - to me. But, if you love the ship and the class, it might be - to you.

Like any large class of warships, as the class progressed, changes started to be made.

Houston is a square bridge variant of the Cleveland-class. You'd need to find a copy of the Skywave Miami class kit to build her.

_________________
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery

As said in a previous quote, to make the Houston you need a Miami version of the Skywave kit. That said, if you are truly looking for a Skywave Cleveland, I have one for sale at a lot less than the one on ebay.

Graham

Zed,
Do you have more than one for sale?

I don't think Betelgeuse90 is referring to any Skywave Cleveland or Skywave Miami kit on Ebay, since I haven't been able to find either one on Ebay these days.
However, there is one listing on Amazon that's a whopping $111 US dollars or 150 Canadian dollars.

The Skywave Miami listing is TWICE that.

_________________
"Haijun" means "navy" in Mandarin Chinese.

"You have enemies? Good. It means you stood up for something in your life."- Winston Churchill

Freetime does sell the Midship rebox for over $60. Less the added PE and wood deck. That may be what the op is referring to... Not trying to speak for him but I think that's the one closest in price.

At least they did. I can't find it on their site anymore.

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Mike, MikeyBugs

I don't know if it is still up, but there was a skywave Cleveland for like $60 usd on Amazon.com. might be gone already as I'm seeing that was rather cheap for that company. Is there any other company that makes a Cleveland or Miami kit? The 60+ price tag for a 1/700 is rather steep for me and not really wanting to spend that much. Not necessarily one I love or anything, just would be nice for the namesake houston: the city I was born in.

As was stated, the further along a class gets there bound to be differences then the lead ship in the class. Plus there were quit alot of Cleveland class cruisers running around by the end of the war.

_________________
Complete:
1/700 USS California BB-44 (Trumpeter)
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-57 (Trumpeter)

in progress:
1/700 USS Montana BB-67
1/700 USS Houston CL-81

Waiting Drydock
1/700 USS Guam CB-2
1/700 Sigourney DD-643
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-49

You can also wait for the 1/700 Cleveland class kit reportedly being developed by Snowman model from China, though little has been heard of it since last year or so.

_________________
"Haijun" means "navy" in Mandarin Chinese.

"You have enemies? Good. It means you stood up for something in your life."- Winston Churchill

I will have to keep an eye out then. Not willing to spend more then $60 usd on a 1/700 model kit. Thanks for all the info!

_________________
Complete:
1/700 USS California BB-44 (Trumpeter)
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-57 (Trumpeter)

in progress:
1/700 USS Montana BB-67
1/700 USS Houston CL-81

Waiting Drydock
1/700 USS Guam CB-2
1/700 Sigourney DD-643
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-49

Hi all,

Other than the fact the hull was slightly underscale as mentioned in another thread, what's wrong with the Skywave/Pit-Road Miami's square bridge?

Just wondering why Shapeways had to make their own replacement square bridge if Skywave already represented the late-war square bridge Cleveland class CL variant in their Miami kits.

_________________
"Haijun" means "navy" in Mandarin Chinese.

"You have enemies? Good. It means you stood up for something in your life."- Winston Churchill

Good question. Please be advised that Shapeways is a printing company, they don't actually design anything. I designed the square bridge. I designed that product based upon customer requests and market analysis which indicated that a Cleveland class square bridge made available in more than one scale was likely to be commercially successful (it is). The Cleveland square bridge design was not intended specifically, exclusively for any one scale. The design in 1/700 was requested by 1/700 scale modelers who already had resin kits but preferred a 3D-printed bridge option for their resin kits. It sells best in 1/500 and 1/600 scales.

Hope that helps and thanks for asking!

Steve

_________________
Have fun, Monkey around.™

-Steve L.

Complete catalog: - https://www.model-monkey.com/
Follow Model Monkey® on Facebook: - https://www.facebook.com/modelmonkeybookandhobby

My apologies, Steve. I meant you when I mentioned Shapeways above though. Thanks for making all those wonderful designs for 3D printing!

_________________
"Haijun" means "navy" in Mandarin Chinese.

"You have enemies? Good. It means you stood up for something in your life."- Winston Churchill

Oh thanks! No apologies necessary at all. I hope my message wasn't offensive. I didn't intend it to be. Shapeways is new to many so sometimes people don't know that I don't actually print anything or that Shapeways doesn't actually design anything. Your excellent question was a good opportunity to help clarify that for those who weren't aware and might be interested in 3D-printed products from me or another designer who offers through Shapeways.

I hope that the design itself is pleasing. If there is something that needs changing, one of the great advantages of these designs over injection molded plastic parts is that they can be changed or otherwise improved without having to cut new steel. Advice is always appreciated.

_________________
Have fun, Monkey around.™

-Steve L.

Complete catalog: - https://www.model-monkey.com/
Follow Model Monkey® on Facebook: - https://www.facebook.com/modelmonkeybookandhobby

Phil (DrPR),

This image may be of interest to you in your quest for bridge views of CLEVELAND class cruisers. I came across this photo of USS DULUTH (CL-87) in ABSD-6, dated as 29 June 1945, at NARA in early June trip there. The full frame image is followed by a close crop of the bridge. A pretty crisp image of this area from a good angle to study the features of the Square-Bridge.

I'm surprised that this phot hasn't been posted at Navsource.

Also, here is a close crop view of an overhead shot of USS PASADENA (CL-65) taken on 21 July 1944. It isn't as sharp (taken at a higher altitude from an aircraft), but shows details of the aft end of the bridge, which are generally hard to find for ships.

Rick,

Thanks! Those are good images and they will be helpful for modelling the square bridge Clevelands.

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

Unfortunately, the images cannot be opened by Windows photo viewer or Photoshop. Apparently the scum at Photobucket have corrupted them.

Thanks for trying. Can you send them as email attachments?

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

Phil,

They are on their way, unless you changed your E-Mail address.