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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:40 pm 
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Here's a drawing (thanks Charles!) from a Baltimore Class cruiser After Air Defense Station that shows an "Illumination Corrector" perhaps mounted to a board. Adjacent to it is a 2'x 2' chart table and a pelorus. Does anyone know what an outdoor "Illumination Corrector" is - probably something to do with the gunfire control system. I will continue my investigation.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:22 am 
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Just a guess, but in WWII they used star shells to illuminate the enemy at night. There were star shell control panels in the directors and elsewhere to calculate the firing angles.

Phil

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:10 am 
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Still working on detailing my 1/96 USS Manchester CL-83. I am trying to determine if this device on the Forward Fire Control Station is a Binnacle/Compass. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance for your help. Neil

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:27 am 
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I found this description "Standard Compass" on CL-64 plans. It is an odd looking compass - perhaps an enclosure has been taken off. I'm trying to figure out how to make, what ever it is, in 1/96 scale.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:01 pm 
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Plans for the USS Miami CL-89 show a "Radio D. F. Loop" at this position.

USS Cleveland CL-55 plans also show a "Radio Dir Finder" at this position, on the deck above the compass.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:27 am 
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Hi Phil, Thanks for the note. Yes my Floating Drydock (CL-89 plans) say "RDF" at this position. Not knowing what RDF stood for I researched/guessed Radio Direction Finder (navigation by triangulating radio signals), but I am not familiar with that device. Even during ww2, wasn't radio direction normally found by the use of antenna's? Also, I saw what appear to be compensating balls on either side - indicating it was more likely a magnetic compass.

Would you happen to have a picture of this device?

Thanks again.

Neil


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:02 am 
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Neil,

From the picture you posted I can't tell what it is. I do see the ball you mention, and I don't see the normal set of circular RDF antennas.

In the plans the binnacle (compass) is on the deck below - the same level as the flag bags. Above it is supposed to be the radio direction finder.

However, the plans were drawn up before the war or earlier during the war, and by the time the war ended things might been moved around. The bell is supposed to be at the level with the flag bags, but it obviously wasn't.

The binnacle was sensitive to objects around it - there was a magnetic "keep out" circle around it where other equipment was not to be located, especially magnetic objects or devices that could generate a magnetic field. Placing the RDF almost directly above the binnacle might have caused problems, as well as equipment around the flag bags and on the deck below. So maybe the RDF was moved elsewhere and the binnacle was moved to it's position.

Many of the late war Clevelands have a RDF antenna mounted on a support attached to the aft side of the forward smoke pipe. After the war these were removed on some ships.

Whatever the thing is in your photo, it is manned in virtually every picture I have of Clevelands underway.

I have attached some files that show the circular radio direction finder antenna at the location forward of the fore ward smoke pipe, and some showing the RDF antenna on the aft side of the forward smoke pipe.


Attachments:
Springfield CL-66.jpg
Springfield CL-66.jpg [ 122.84 KiB | Viewed 601 times ]
Astoria CL-90 2.jpg
Astoria CL-90 2.jpg [ 136.29 KiB | Viewed 601 times ]
USS Astoria CL-90 Oct 1944 NH 98421.jpg
USS Astoria CL-90 Oct 1944 NH 98421.jpg [ 110.99 KiB | Viewed 601 times ]

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Last edited by DrPR on Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:49 pm 
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Maybe a pelorus with extra sights attached for different targets?

That it's manned in photos would make sense if it was being used to keep track of the vessel from which the photo was taken.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:01 pm 
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I agree that being manned makes me think it is a binnacle or pelorus. It is in a common position midships for the binnacle. A binnacle would carry the "navigator's balls" that appear to be visible in your photo.

A single loop RDF antenna would not be manned. It would be rotated by motor and controlled from the operator's station.

The later two-loop RDF antenna had two antennas mounted at right angles to each other. The relative field strengths from the different loops gave an indication of direction.

Phil

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:49 am 
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Just a comment on that last set of pictures. The first one, the one labeled "Astoria CL-90 1.jpg", is most decidedly not Astoria, but in fact is Baltimore, CA-68. I checked the original photo from which this was cropped, and it is mislabeled CL-90. But the single turret aft and the twin cranes at the stern say otherwise.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:04 pm 
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Dick,

Good eye for details. The photo is mislabeled! The high quad 40 mount between the smoke pipes is a give away, as well as the tops of the smoke pipes - they aren't exactly like the Cleveland smoke pipes.

Thanks for catching that!

I edited the post and removed that picture. I got it from a fellow who had scanned a bunch of photos at the National Archives. I wonder if he screwed up or if the picture is in the wrong box at the Archives?

Phil

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:15 pm 
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That photo was labeled wrong back when it was taken. It is in the19-LCM (BuShips) collection at NARA, with other USS ASTORIA (CL-90) photos.

Normally, the labels (which are taped on many of the negatives) and dates provided on the photos in 19-LCM are accurate. Some dates reflect WHEN the photos were processed, and not when taken. But, normally they are off only a few days. This is one of only two or three serious errors on labels/dates I have come across in 19-LCM. An example of a real confusing error, was one whole set of photos taken of USS MULLANY (DD-528) in January 1945 were dated as being taken in July 1943!!! There were apparently two photographers taking photos that day. One set has the correct date and the other has the wrong date.

Since USS BALTIMORE and USS ASTORIA were in the same yard at the same time, the labels apparently got mixed up on some of the photos.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:45 pm 
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Thanks Phil, Rick, Dick and Timmy for your help on the Binnacle / Radar Loop question. By the way, I'm going with a "removable" Binnacle until I find out more... Thanks again!

I have another question. This time about Rigging and Lines for the Main Mast of my CL-83. I am unfamiliar with the details of how the Flags and Pennants are raised and lowered, how the mast is supported and what antennas are connected to mast. Specifically, I believe the signal flags are raised and lowered on a halyard which is supported by a small "roller block" (not sure of the actual name) which is connected to the yardarm - at least that's how it looks from pictures. My questions are:

1. Is the "roller block" connected directly to the yardarm? Or is it connected to another line (called a Speed Cone Retractor?) that spans the most of the length of one side of the yard arm (so that all 4 halyards can be raised/lowered together)? On some ships it looks like the "roller blocks" are connected directly to the yard arm and on others it may be that they are connected to a "Speed Cone Retractor". I have pictures of both below.

2. Is my general layout (Please see my colored Diagram below) of halyards, mast stays and antenna's correct? Do you see any glaring errors?

3. My assumption is that mast stays are connected to the mast at the top with a simple ring and loop system and are connected at the bottom with a turn buckle (See Picture of USS Kidd). Would that apply for CL-83? Also, do the mast stays have in-line insulators like the antennas?

Below is a Colored Diagram I made, as well as closeup pictures of the CL-83, Drawings of Cleveland Class rigging and photos of navy models, photos of the USS Kidd destroyer and current photos of my Manchester model.

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Colored Mast Rigging Diagram - CL-83 Proposed

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Cleveland Class Cruiser CL-64 Drawing

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USS Manchester CL-83 25Oct1946 Closeup

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USS Manchester CL-83 25 Oct 1946 Closeup Opposite Side

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USS Manchester CL-83 9 March 1948 Closeup

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Speed Cone Lanyard System??? - 1/48 Scale Navy Model of the USS New Jersey in the Washington DC Navy Museum

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Roller Blocks Connected Directly to Yardarm - 1/96 Scale Navy Model of a Cleveland Class Cruiser in the Washington DC Navy Museum

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Mast Rigging - USS Kidd

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Mast Stay Turnbuckle mounted to the deck - USS Kidd

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Current picture of my 1/96 Scale USS Manchester CL-83

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Current picture of my 1/96 Scale USS Manchester CL-83


Thank you again for your help!

Neil


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:38 pm 
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Neil,

I have never heard the term "speed cone retract." What you show in the New Jersey model photo appears to be a way to lower all of the halyard blocks (but I am not certain). One problem with the signal flag system is that the end of a halyard can "get away" and run through the block at the top, or at least the clip on the end of the line gets caught in the block. When this happens someone has to climb the mast and feed the halyard back through the block. This can be interesting if the ship is pitching and rolling in high winds. Being able to lower all of the blocks would make it easier and faster to re-rig the halyard. I have never seen this in practice.

The blocks normally have a ring attached to a strap around the block. The yardarms have "U" loops welded to the metal tube. The blocks are secured to the yardarms with shackles that hook through the loops on the yardarms, and the shackle bolt passes through the ring on the block. You can see the shackles in the photos of the New Jersey and Cleveland models.

The lines hanging below the Cleveland yardarms (yellow and called "speed cone retracts" in your diagram) are foot ropes. They are used when someone has to climb out on the yardarm to restring halyards, repair cables to the antennas and anemometers, etc. They are the same as the foot ropes on the yards of square rigged sailing ships. Typically they are fastened to the yardarm at the outboard end and again at some point inboard. In between there are additional cables attached to the yardarms that hang down and loop around the foot ropes to support them. You can see the arrangement in your Manchester mast photos.

Metal cable stays have to be grounded - they do not have insulators. You can see the ground cable wrapped around the turnbuckle in the USS Kidd photo. High power radio and radar transmitters emit a strong field and the stays work just like antennas. The induced voltage and current can be very high - enough to kill. We were warned not to grab hold of any metal stay. If the grounding fails due to corrosion - and that does happen - you could get a nasty shock when you touch it and complete the circuit to the grounded deck.

Phil

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:18 am 
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Phil,

Thank you very much for the information. It is extremely helpful. I would have never figured out the foot ropes for example. It makes sense. So does grounding the cables and the basic rigging of the halyards.

I think I will build my rigging like you described, and without "speed cones", but with foot ropes. Also on the main mast, I plan on tying one end of the signal flag halyard to the flag bag and the other end to the pinned rail above/in front of the flag bag. What do you think? Below are photos.

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Original Navy model of USS Manchester (in storage in Birmingham Alabama). Note how the signal flag halyards are tied off at the flag bag and the rail forward and above the bag.

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On board the USS Manchester in 1949. Photo I obtained from a CL-83 veteran.

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On board the USS Manchester in 1949. Photo I obtained from a CL-83 veteran.

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My model. Made a upper rail (not permanently attached yet - just wedged in place) for tying off other end of flag halyards.

Image
Revised rigging diagram (foot ropes added, no "speed cones") for my USS Manchester CL-83.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:29 am 
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Your halyard rigging and foot ropes look OK. The photos from the Manchester show the signal halyard rigging pretty clearly.

Here is a photo of the flag bag on the OK City CLG-5:

https://www.okieboat.com/Copyright%20im ... 24%20C.jpg

I thought it might have been the WWII version just carried over to the CLG modification, but it appears to be smaller. But you can see the bar in front of it they tied off the halyards to while attaching flags. I don't know if they did this during WWII - something to watch for.

Phil

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:36 am 
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Will do. Thanks Phil. Neil


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