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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:25 am 
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Sadly, a lot of G-Factor props are merely brass copies of existing kit screws. There may have had been one or two exceptions, but otherwise are to be avoided.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:04 pm 
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This may be a dumb question, but these are just ejector pin marks correct? They are on both of the hull halves. I'm pretty sure they are as I see no evidence of them in real life pictures. Just want to make sure before I fill them in.

Image20190707_185701 by Nelson Wallace, on Flickr


Making progress on my Chicago, and have some of Maartens propellers on the way for her. Going to get paint this weekend so I can really make some progress.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:00 am 
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Hi Nelson,

I have never seen such large holes in the real LA boats. Even if they are there, they should be closed with covers when the boat gets to sea, they would give a lot of noise if these were really open. So filling them before you paint would be the safe choice!

Hope the props will reach you soon!

Maarten

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:31 am 
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Yeah, those holes don't correspond to anything in any of the exterior profiles I have.

Jacob

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:46 am 
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I agree with the other two posters. There are some round openings in the hull (condenser intake and outlet) but those are further back in engineering spaces, closer to the keel and covered with a round grating. Along the bottom are the vent openings for the ballast tanks, but those are rectangular and also covered with a grating.

Here's a set of LA Class drawings that can be expanded to high resolution:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Los_Angeles_class_submarine_3D_drawing.svg

Openings in the hull are indicated. None of these are as big as the hole you have in your kit.

That's one of the larger and deeper injection pin openings I have ever seen...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:47 am 
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Thanks for the confirmation. I figured it was just part of the molding process. It is about 1/8" wide, which scales to nearly four feet in real life. I don't think there's any SSNs sailing around with four foot wide dents in their sides lol


Tom Dougherty wrote:
I agree with the other two posters. There are some round openings in the hull (condenser intake and outlet) but those are further back in engineering spaces, closer to the keel and covered with a round grating. Along the bottom are the vent openings for the ballast tanks, but those are rectangular and also covered with a grating.

Here's a set of LA Class drawings that can be expanded to high resolution:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Los_Angeles_class_submarine_3D_drawing.svg

Openings in the hull are indicated. None of these are as big as the hole you have in your kit.

That's one of the larger and deeper injection pin openings I have ever seen...


Thanks for those drawings, they're great!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:08 pm 
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Hey all, just thought I would post up some things I came across while playing on Google Earth. These are screen cuts, so not the best quality but you can infer some info from them.

Pictures #1&2 were taken in August of 2018 and show a Flight II LA boat in the floating dry dock in San Diego. If you look at the screw, you can really see how much sweep back the blades have. Also, the screw almost has a chrome like finish, not sure if this is just for when in dry dock or if they are using a new material on the screws.

Pictures #3&4 were from Google Maps at an unspecified date, showing a 688i boat, specifically the sun shining in the water shows that the outer ring on the screw is bronze colored to match the rest of the screw.

Picture #5 is from January 2008, showing another 688i boat. The sun also shows the screw outer ring as a bronze finish.

Picture #6 is from October 2012 and shows either a Flight II or 688i boat, showing what is possibly the black/gray paint scheme. This may not be trustworthy as the boat is in dry dock and may be partially painted.

Obviously these pictures cannot be traced back to specific boats unless we find somebody with access to the logs of which boat was were and when, not likely to happen. But hopefully these can help with other more general questions that some of us have.


Attachments:
Sub Prop.JPG
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Sub Prop 2.JPG
Sub Prop 2.JPG [ 30.48 KiB | Viewed 5964 times ]
Sub Prop 3.JPG
Sub Prop 3.JPG [ 109.96 KiB | Viewed 5964 times ]
Sub Prop 4.JPG
Sub Prop 4.JPG [ 32.43 KiB | Viewed 5964 times ]
Sub Prop 5.JPG
Sub Prop 5.JPG [ 59.09 KiB | Viewed 5964 times ]
Sub paint.JPG
Sub paint.JPG [ 156.34 KiB | Viewed 5964 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:56 pm 
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Nice photos! You can see the shadow of the boss cap vortex attenuator on the second photo. I would guess the silvery appearance of the screw is just due to light surface oxidation that can give bronze a grey cast. And the appearance of the 688I with gray below the waterline is almost certainly due to marine growth or oxidation of anti-fouling paint.

Jacob

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:19 am 
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"boss cap vortex attenuator".

We're not supposed to know about that feature....

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:14 am 
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Tom Dougherty wrote:
"boss cap vortex attenuator".

We're not supposed to know about that feature....

I have modified one of my props with this feature... note also the shadow below. Nice extra: I also added a ring to the prop of the ASDS. Maybe I should paint these rings in bronze as well?
Attachment:
IMAG2552 reduced.jpg
IMAG2552 reduced.jpg [ 216.61 KiB | Viewed 5923 times ]

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:32 pm 
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]Umm, if you mean the Vortex Attenuator, I don't see it. If you mean the ring propeller, yes.

The Vortex Attenuators look like this on the propeller hub:
(the circled areas are towed array dispensers)
Attachment:
File comment: LA Vortex Attenuator on propeller
LA Vortex attenuator -1.jpg
LA Vortex attenuator -1.jpg [ 125.2 KiB | Viewed 5909 times ]


The other thing you might want to do is paint (or add as thin white strips) the four sacrificial zincs at the stern. They are prominent on the stern; see this link for the one of the zincs on USS Greenville in dry dock:
http://navsource.org/archives/08/770/0877226.jpg

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"Project Azorian: The CIA and the Raising of the K-129" Book
http://www.usni.org/store/catalog-fall-2012/project-azorian


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:01 am 
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In response to the six pictures that were posted above from hondaman117. From my quick online research I found that #1 and #2 from 2018 are likely the USS Key West SSN 722 as it was in dry dock then. Picture #6 from 2012 is likely the USS Jefferson City SSN 759.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:18 am 
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Tom Dougherty wrote:
]Umm, if you mean the Vortex Attenuator, I don't see it. If you mean the ring propeller, yes.

The Vortex Attenuators look like this on the propeller hub:
(the circled areas are towed array dispensers)
Attachment:
LA Vortex attenuator -1.jpg


The other thing you might want to do is paint (or add as thin white strips) the four sacrificial zincs at the stern. They are prominent on the stern; see this link for the one of the zincs on USS Greenville in dry dock:
http://navsource.org/archives/08/770/0877226.jpg

aah, now I see! Thanks mate. I was only thinking of the Coke bottle hub cover.

And yes, you're fully right about the zincs, on most of my other boats I painted them in the appropriate color.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:05 am 
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:wave_1: Revisiting the 688 now in 1/350 scale from HobbyBoss. This is a gift build and Wanna get it right. :)

Horizontal stabilizers / rudders:
1) Triangular in shape with small tubes *(as described above)
2) same as 1) but without tube extensions?


Which Paint version is best for USS Dallas/Houston/Louisville ca 1980s, early 1990s?

1) 2/3 red hull, nose cone 1/2 red
2) 2/3 red hull including nose cone
3) 1/2 red hull, black nose cone
4) 1/3 red hull and nose cone
5) All Black boat

Im leaning towards version 1) on rudder, and version 3) on paint. Same as I did on my 688 generic boat.

Anyone want to chime in on this?

For example Houston was doing emergency blow in Red October and there it seems she had all black nose cone and 1/2 red hull. Could be wrong of course here but that is my impression. Appreciate some thoughts on this one.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:27 am 
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pascalemod wrote:
Which Paint version is best for USS Dallas/Houston/Louisville ca 1980s, early 1990s?

1) 2/3 red hull, nose cone 1/2 red
2) 2/3 red hull including nose cone
3) 1/2 red hull, black nose cone
4) 1/3 red hull and nose cone
5) All Black boat

Im leaning towards version 1) on rudder, and version 3) on paint. Same as I did on my 688 generic boat.

Anyone want to chime in on this? Appreciate some thoughts on this one.


It depends on what you consider 'the best'. Version 3) seems to be the most used, at least on photos. However we know, operational boats will be 5). But you wont see many photos of those, and visually they are much less interesting! And all other versions you mention occurred once or twice, so take your pick. Unless you want to depict a specific boat on a specific day and time, you're pretty free to choose whatever you like. :eyebrows:

Further note: the colors during the Cold War were discussed earlier in this topic, on pages 3 and 4: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=34570&start=60

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:30 pm 
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For an operational boat during that time period, definitely option (3). Since the sonar dome is made of a different material (fiberglass), it typically weathers differently, so I usually paint it dark grey on my models, but this is more of an artistic choice.

As for the stern stabilizers, at that time they probably just had the towed array tube on the port stabilizer. The tubes on the kit look a little long to me. The port tube should only extend about 2 feet past the stern plane trailing edge, which is just 1/16 inch in 1/350 scale. I don't think the thin-line array on the starboard stabilizer was added until later, so the tube on the starboard stabilizer should be cut off so that the end is flush with the stern plane like the picture of SSN 703 on page 4.

As far as making the kit as accurate as possible, I have a few suggestions:

1. The seam lines encircling the hull should be filled and sanded. As Tom has pointed out, submarines are really smooth and any sort of seam line is waaaaaay overscale (the weld lines would be raised above the surface instead of recessed anyway).

2. If there are four small flood holes on the top of the bow, these should be filled in if the boat doesn't have VLS tubes.

3. The WLR-9 dome should go on the top of the bow on the non-VLS boats. I don't know what the instructions say about this, but make sure it's not under the bow, which was the case only for VLS boats.

4. The non-skid area of the deck looks raised on the Hobby Boss kit, but it should be flush with the hull. Whether this is worth correcting is up to you.

5. The flood holes are in roughly the right place but the real ones are arranged differently. Similarly, there aren't any MSW or ASW suction and discharge ports. These would take a lot of effort to correct though, and it's a relatively minor inaccuracy.

Jacob

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:19 pm 
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Vepr157 wrote:

3. The WLR-9 dome should go on the top of the bow on the non-VLS boats. I don't know what the instructions say about this, but make sure it's not under the bow, which was the case only for VLS boats.


I think the WLR-9 is only on the bottom for the 688i boats. I have seen lots of pictures of Flight II boats with them on top. Hopefully somebody else can confirm my observations.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:25 pm 
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hondaman117 wrote:

I think the WLR-9 is only on the bottom for the 688i boats. I have seen lots of pictures of Flight II boats with them on top. Hopefully somebody else can confirm my observations.


After looking at some pics on Navsource, you're totally right. They should be on top for all 688s with fairwater planes.

Jacob

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:26 am 
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As for the stern stabilizers, at that time they probably just had the towed array tube on the port stabilizer. The tubes on the kit look a little long to me. The port tube should only extend about 2 feet past the stern plane trailing edge, which is just 1/16 inch in 1/350 scale. I don't think the thin-line array on the starboard stabilizer was added until later, so the tube on the starboard stabilizer should be cut off so that the end is flush with the stern plane like the picture of SSN 703 on page 4.

I have just been browsing through the lot of 688 photos on Navsource, but photos where the stern stabilizers are in view are very rare, and in fact I have seen NO towed VLS or thin line array tubes on any photo at all! In all these cases the stabilizers are bare, just as if they were Sturgeon stabilizers - but without the end plates!
So if anyone can provide good shots of these tubes, either stbd or port, would be a great help! Otherwise we should all start cutting them from our models, Italeri, Hobby Boss, Riich or whatever. As for now I had deleted them from my 688 Los Angeles already.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:44 am 
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Maarten Schönfeld wrote:
I have just been browsing through the lot of 688 photos on Navsource, but photos where the stern stabilizers are in view are very rare, and in fact I have seen NO towed VLS or thin line array tubes on any photo at all! In all these cases the stabilizers are bare, just as if they were Sturgeon stabilizers - but without the end plates!
So if anyone can provide good shots of these tubes, either stbd or port, would be a great help! Otherwise we should all start cutting them from our models, Italeri, Hobby Boss, Riich or whatever. As for now I had deleted them from my 688 Los Angeles already.


Maarten,

If there's a fairing for the towed array along the starboard side (the long blister that runs from bow to stern), there will always be a towed array tube on the port stabilizer. This is the TB-16 ("fat-line") towed array. The array itself was thick and inflexible ("fat"), thus it had to be kept relatively straight inside that fairing on the starboard side. It was streamed out of the tube on the port stabilizer on a much longer cable that was stored in the forward ballast tanks (because the tow cable was thinner and more flexible, it could be wrapped around a winch). A few of the early 688s were launched without towed arrays, but they were added soon after the submarine was commissioned. By about 1980, all 688s had TB-16 towed arrays. To reiterate, if the long blister on the starboard side is there, there must be a tube on the port stabilizer. Having neither the blister or port-side tube is only correct for a few boats in a limited time period.

Before the TB-23 was introduced, the starboard stabilizer was bare, like you described. The TB-23 ("thin-line") was longer, thinner, and more flexible than the TB-16, thus it could be wrapped around a winch with its tow cable. The array and cable were stored in the aft ballast tank and the array was streamed out of a tube on the starboard stabilizer. The TB-23 was developed in the mid '80s, and my impression is that they were fitted to the new 688Is before they were retrofitted to the early 688s. The TB-29 was another type of thin-line array that was developed in the mid '90s, and the tube on the starboard stabilizer was almost certainly unchanged for boats that got the TB-29.

Here is a photo of the Columbia which shows both arrays,

Image

as does this youtube video of the La Jolla,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfcNIAEDsPM

Here is a drawing I made showing the top-down view of a 688 with both TB-16 and TB-23 tubes,

Image

By the way, VLS refers to the Vertical Launch System (the nest of 12 tubes on the Flight II and Improved 688), and not a towed array.

Jacob

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1/350 Alfa
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