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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:09 pm 
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5"/38 gun mounts are numbered from the front to the back of the ship - starboard side - #51, #53, #55, #57, #59, port side - #52, #54, #56, #58, & #60.

20mm & 40mm mounts would probably be numbered in similar fashion, but since these had all been removed by the mid-60s when I served aboard NEW JERSEY, it was a moot point.

Hope this helps,

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Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:52 pm 
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Thanks Hank! I had forgotten which side was odd and even. Also wondered when they got to the 5-#10 mount. Wonder what the nomenclature was on the 40 mounts. More than ten of those and they wouldn't go to 50 mount etc. Three digits?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:39 pm 
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Judging from the photo, It appears the 40mm are numbered from 1 up wards. The odd number is on the starboard side. The tubs for the mk 51 directors seems to be labeled with the same number as the 40mm mounts the control.

The first two 40mm mounts on the starboard midship three mount bofor tower were numbered 9 and 11. This suggest the centerline mount on top of B turret is number 3. Counting from the bow these might have been

Starboard Foredeck mount: 1

Centerline on B turret: 3

Starboard mount behind B turret on level 2: 5

Starboard mount next to the base of fore director tower: 7

The three mounts on starboard midship tower: 9,11,13

Starboard mount behind the mast of aft director tower: 15

Starboard mounts forward of C turret on main deck: 17

Starboard mount next to the crane: 19.

THe port side numbering will be arranged slightly differently because the centerline on C turret will be number 18.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:46 pm 
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Since the tubs for the mk51 directors have matching numbers as the 40mm bofor mount each countries, that brings up the issue of which director controls which mount. The Missouri had 6 more mk51 directors than 40mm mounts. If we use the rule the closest director control the 40mm mount, the issue is still somewhat embigious, especially around the base fire director tower, and the aft funnel where directors are clustered much more tightly than 40mm mounts.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:09 pm 
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Fliger747 wrote:
Wonder what the nomenclature was on the 40 mounts. More than ten of those and they wouldn't go to 50 mount etc. Three digits?


This shows the pattern of numbering.

Attachment:
40mm.jpg
40mm.jpg [ 383.41 KiB | Viewed 6958 times ]


It front to back with odd on right right and even on the left. The centerline mounts can be either even or odd (and shift the numbering).


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:22 pm 
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Re. the 40mm plan:

Using this plan and obvious visible numbering, this makes the forwardmost 40mm mounts as Mount #1 (starboard side) and Mount #2 (port Side) - I would guess that the F.C. Directors are numbered accordingly also.

Since all my reference materials are packed up (including my MO Plan Book!!) I'm wondering if the TFD MISSIOURI Plan Book doesn't also have the 40mm mounts numbered as well.

On the 20mm mounts: Below are a couple photos from IOWA which show the backside of the 20mm Shields - both the gun and group numbers are shown in white, block lettering. We could therefore conclude that the other IOWA class were similarly so designated:
Attachment:
BB61 - Bow 20mm Mounts F1111C474.jpg
BB61 - Bow 20mm Mounts F1111C474.jpg [ 250.28 KiB | Viewed 6955 times ]

If you zoom in you may be able to make out these details.
Attachment:
BB61 - Port 20mm Mounts F1111C473.jpg
BB61 - Port 20mm Mounts F1111C473.jpg [ 155.04 KiB | Viewed 6955 times ]


I haven't found any photos of the 40mm mounts from the backside which show the mount #'s, etc.

Hope this helps,

Hank

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:21 pm 
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Iowa’s light AA numbersing has to be different from her sister ships because she has an extra bunch of 20mm oerlikons on B turret and 1 less 40mm bofor.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:47 am 
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Chuck wrote:
Quote:
Iowa’s light AA numbersing has to be different from her sister ships because she has an extra bunch of 20mm oerlikons on B turret and 1 less 40mm bofor.


I disagree - the numbering "system" would not have changed, only the actual gun/group numbers. Whether one ship had more or less 20mm mounts installed is immaterial - starting at the bow and working aft I believe they all had the same system. If I can find any photos to back this statement up, I'll post.

Perhaps BigJimSlade can post a few more shots of that particular plan he posted that might give some further information regarding the 20mm mounts, etc.

Hank

Edit - OK, I have been proven wrong! The following clipped photo portions taken aboard MISSOURI shows a different type of numbering system:
At the Bow -
Attachment:
BB-63 Bow 20mm Detail.JPG
BB-63 Bow 20mm Detail.JPG [ 61.93 KiB | Viewed 6935 times ]

Port Side -
Attachment:
BB-63 Port 20mm Detail.JPG
BB-63 Port 20mm Detail.JPG [ 81.02 KiB | Viewed 6935 times ]

Stbd Side -
Attachment:
BB-63 Stbd 20mm Detail.JPG
BB-63 Stbd 20mm Detail.JPG [ 64.74 KiB | Viewed 6935 times ]


And on the 40mm gun mounts - here's one of the port side aft -
Attachment:
BB-63 Port 40mm Mount Details.JPG
BB-63 Port 40mm Mount Details.JPG [ 141.97 KiB | Viewed 6935 times ]


So, it looks like each ship had an individual way of designating the mount numbers, etc. Who knew???

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:06 pm 
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The 4th picture above, looking back over the quarter deck from port side superstructure, shows the last 40mm bofor on the aft end of superstructure numbered 12. The one immediately behind it on the quarterdeck is numbered 20.

This suggest the numbering on each side is not sequentially odd or even.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:27 pm 
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Also, the picture confirms the vertical inside surface of splinter shields and bulwarks on the Missouri was not painted the same color as outside surfaces. The inside surfaces all seems to be a dark, possibly deck blue.

Did she retail dark inside coloring after she was repainted with measure 22?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:36 pm 
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chuck wrote:
Also, the picture confirms the vertical inside surface of splinter shields and bulwarks on the Missouri was not painted the same color as outside surfaces. The inside surfaces all seems to be a dark, possibly deck blue.

Did she retail dark inside coloring after she was repainted with measure 22?

Looking at the picture, I would say that it definitely would indicate that the inside surface is showing a dark shadow and that no inference can be made as to the exact color.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:40 am 
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Chuck wrote:
Quote:
The 4th picture above, looking back over the quarter deck from port side superstructure, shows the last 40mm Bofor on the aft end of superstructure numbered 12. The one immediately behind it on the quarterdeck is numbered 20.

This suggest the numbering on each side is not sequentially odd or even.


Once again, I have to disagree - this photo confirms the numbering is all EVEN on the port side (and would be odd on stbd). The only question would be how the individual mounts were numbered. This would be possibly answered if we had a deck plan of the ship where the mounts are actually numbered.

Going back to the small clipped plan Jim Slade provided several posts ago, Turret 2's 40mm mount is #3, The port side 40mm is #4, the stbd. side 40mm is #5. I am going to guess that the (2) 40mm mounts up forward of Turret 1 are #1 (stbd. side) and #2 (port side). Working aft from 40mm mounts #4 & #5 we could probably with some degree of accuracy determine the remaining 40mm mount numbers.

Edit - I have just retrieved my packed up TFD MISSOURI Plan Book and can verify that SOME of the 20mm and 40mm mounts in the drawings are numbered, but not all of them. In a couple locations the numbering includes in parenthesis - "(BB62-BB64)", indicating that IOWA had a different numbering scheme. One note is labeled "(BB61-BB64)" indicating similar numbering on all 4 ships. Unfortunately, the Plan Book does NOT include an overall plan view of the ship showing all the gun mounts, etc.

Hope this helps,

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:47 am 
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It seems hard to reconcile the mounts being sequentially even numbered on port side starting from the front if the numbering goes from 12 to 20 between two nearest mount on that side.

In the FDD plans, there is also a photo showing the centerline 40mm bofor mount on turret B Is labeled 1. So the first pair well to the forward of A turret do not start the numbering sequence for each’s Respective side.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:48 am 
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Ok, for the Missouri 1944 here are her 40mm gun number locations, these did change again after she lost her camouflage paint scheme. Chad


Fwd 40mm Main deck Port #18, Stbd #17
Turret 2 #1
O1 Port #2, Stbd #3
O5 Port #4, Stbd #5
O3 mid tubs Port #6,8,10 Stbd #7,9,11
O2 Aft Superstructure Port #12, Stbd #13
Turret 3 #14
Aft Main Deck Port #20, Stbd #19
Stern Tubs Port #16, Stbd #15

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USN ABE2 2013-Present


1/96 Missouri 1944
1/96 Pennsylvania 1941
1/96 Yorktown 1944
1/96 Oscar Austin DDG 79 2013


Last edited by grim reaper on Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:02 pm 
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Chad,

Thanks for clearing that up (sort of!). It appears that the drawings in TFD MO Plan Book don't specifically show the 40mm mount on Turret 2 as such - only the (correctly) mentioned photo calling that mount #1 - pg. 15 of the printed version which Chuck identified.

FYI - the abbreviation for starboard is STBD, just so you know!

I am going to hand mark the only overall plan view of MISSIOURI on pg. VII with the correct mount nos. for the 40mm units.

Jim Slade's partial plan showing Turret 2 and her assoc. 40mm mount - I've asked him to clarify which ship that plan shows, as there is an obvious discrepancy in numbering. I'm thinking the plan may have been for NEW JERSEY. We'll see....!

Hank

Edit - OK, your list does NOT include mounts #17 or #18 - which would appear to be the (2) 40mm mounts up forward of Turret 1 - port #18 and stbd #17 as indicated above in the photo on pg. 15 of the Plan Book.

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:23 pm 
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Hank, I got all the gun numbers off of Navsource, most of them are when she was still in the yards and a few during her shakedown cruise. Chad

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In war there is no substitute for victory.

USMC-2531 1991-1999
USN ABE2 2013-Present


1/96 Missouri 1944
1/96 Pennsylvania 1941
1/96 Yorktown 1944
1/96 Oscar Austin DDG 79 2013


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:07 pm 
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My USN Gunnery manual (I have only one of the two volumes) indicates that the Mk 51 directors could be switched as far as the mounts they controlled. This makes sense as a particular director might be put out of service. How the parallax issues were or were not corrected fro in this system, I do not know.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:35 pm 
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Chad,

Thanks! I've also found out from Jim Slade (BigJimSlade) that the partial plan he posted is of NEW JERSEY, so there are differences in the mount numbering on her vs MISSOURI. And...if you look at the 1950 BoGP of MISSOURI, the mount numbers (40mm) have changed once again. Quite differently, as a matter of fact.

Hank

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:52 pm 
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Yes, the light AA directors can also be used to direct the twin 5"38's if necessary and the Mk 37 can also be used to control the main battery if necessary (Naval Ordnance and Gunnery, Vol 2 p 7. The adjacent 40 mm mounts can be controlled by the Mk 51 units.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:49 pm 
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Fliger747 wrote:
Yes, the light AA directors can also be used to direct the twin 5"38's if necessary and the Mk 37 can also be used to control the main battery if necessary (Naval Ordnance and Gunnery, Vol 2 p 7. The adjacent 40 mm mounts can be controlled by the Mk 51 units.


Yes, But Iowa and New Jersey were commissioned with exactly as many Mk51 directors as they had 40mm bofor mounts. But the Mk-37 directors for the 5"/38 proved too slow to track very close enemy aircraft. So extra Mk-51 directors were added to many battleships and cruisers between 1943 and 1944 to help direct 5"/38 mounts against close range threats. So Missouri and Wisconsin seems to have been commission with 6 more Mk 51s than they had 40mm bofor mounts.

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