The Ship Model Forum

Iowa’s light AA numbersing has to be different from her sister ships because she has an extra bunch of 20mm oerlikons on B turret and 1 less 40mm bofor.

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Chuck wrote:


I disagree - the numbering "system" would not have changed, only the actual gun/group numbers. Whether one ship had more or less 20mm mounts installed is immaterial - starting at the bow and working aft I believe they all had the same system. If I can find any photos to back this statement up, I'll post.

Perhaps BigJimSlade can post a few more shots of that particular plan he posted that might give some further information regarding the 20mm mounts, etc.

Hank

Edit - OK, I have been proven wrong! The following clipped photo portions taken aboard MISSOURI shows a different type of numbering system:
At the Bow -

Port Side -

Stbd Side -


And on the 40mm gun mounts - here's one of the port side aft -


So, it looks like each ship had an individual way of designating the mount numbers, etc. Who knew???

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

The 4th picture above, looking back over the quarter deck from port side superstructure, shows the last 40mm bofor on the aft end of superstructure numbered 12. The one immediately behind it on the quarterdeck is numbered 20.

This suggest the numbering on each side is not sequentially odd or even.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

Also, the picture confirms the vertical inside surface of splinter shields and bulwarks on the Missouri was not painted the same color as outside surfaces. The inside surfaces all seems to be a dark, possibly deck blue.

Did she retail dark inside coloring after she was repainted with measure 22?

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

Looking at the picture, I would say that it definitely would indicate that the inside surface is showing a dark shadow and that no inference can be made as to the exact color.

Chuck wrote:


Once again, I have to disagree - this photo confirms the numbering is all EVEN on the port side (and would be odd on stbd). The only question would be how the individual mounts were numbered. This would be possibly answered if we had a deck plan of the ship where the mounts are actually numbered.

Going back to the small clipped plan Jim Slade provided several posts ago, Turret 2's 40mm mount is #3, The port side 40mm is #4, the stbd. side 40mm is #5. I am going to guess that the (2) 40mm mounts up forward of Turret 1 are #1 (stbd. side) and #2 (port side). Working aft from 40mm mounts #4 & #5 we could probably with some degree of accuracy determine the remaining 40mm mount numbers.

Edit - I have just retrieved my packed up TFD MISSOURI Plan Book and can verify that SOME of the 20mm and 40mm mounts in the drawings are numbered, but not all of them. In a couple locations the numbering includes in parenthesis - "(BB62-BB64)", indicating that IOWA had a different numbering scheme. One note is labeled "(BB61-BB64)" indicating similar numbering on all 4 ships. Unfortunately, the Plan Book does NOT include an overall plan view of the ship showing all the gun mounts, etc.

Hope this helps,

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

It seems hard to reconcile the mounts being sequentially even numbered on port side starting from the front if the numbering goes from 12 to 20 between two nearest mount on that side.

In the FDD plans, there is also a photo showing the centerline 40mm bofor mount on turret B Is labeled 1. So the first pair well to the forward of A turret do not start the numbering sequence for each’s Respective side.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

Ok, for the Missouri 1944 here are her 40mm gun number locations, these did change again after she lost her camouflage paint scheme. Chad


Fwd 40mm Main deck Port #18, Stbd #17
Turret 2 #1
O1 Port #2, Stbd #3
O5 Port #4, Stbd #5
O3 mid tubs Port #6,8,10 Stbd #7,9,11
O2 Aft Superstructure Port #12, Stbd #13
Turret 3 #14
Aft Main Deck Port #20, Stbd #19
Stern Tubs Port #16, Stbd #15

_________________
In war there is no substitute for victory.

USMC-2531 1991-1999
USN ABE2 2013-Present


1/96 Missouri 1944
1/96 Pennsylvania 1941
1/96 Yorktown 1944
1/96 Oscar Austin DDG 79 2013

Chad,

Thanks for clearing that up (sort of!). It appears that the drawings in TFD MO Plan Book don't specifically show the 40mm mount on Turret 2 as such - only the (correctly) mentioned photo calling that mount #1 - pg. 15 of the printed version which Chuck identified.

FYI - the abbreviation for starboard is STBD, just so you know!

I am going to hand mark the only overall plan view of MISSIOURI on pg. VII with the correct mount nos. for the 40mm units.

Jim Slade's partial plan showing Turret 2 and her assoc. 40mm mount - I've asked him to clarify which ship that plan shows, as there is an obvious discrepancy in numbering. I'm thinking the plan may have been for NEW JERSEY. We'll see....!

Hank

Edit - OK, your list does NOT include mounts #17 or #18 - which would appear to be the (2) 40mm mounts up forward of Turret 1 - port #18 and stbd #17 as indicated above in the photo on pg. 15 of the Plan Book.

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Hank, I got all the gun numbers off of Navsource, most of them are when she was still in the yards and a few during her shakedown cruise. Chad

_________________
In war there is no substitute for victory.

USMC-2531 1991-1999
USN ABE2 2013-Present


1/96 Missouri 1944
1/96 Pennsylvania 1941
1/96 Yorktown 1944
1/96 Oscar Austin DDG 79 2013

My USN Gunnery manual (I have only one of the two volumes) indicates that the Mk 51 directors could be switched as far as the mounts they controlled. This makes sense as a particular director might be put out of service. How the parallax issues were or were not corrected fro in this system, I do not know.

Chad,

Thanks! I've also found out from Jim Slade (BigJimSlade) that the partial plan he posted is of NEW JERSEY, so there are differences in the mount numbering on her vs MISSOURI. And...if you look at the 1950 BoGP of MISSOURI, the mount numbers (40mm) have changed once again. Quite differently, as a matter of fact.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Yes, the light AA directors can also be used to direct the twin 5"38's if necessary and the Mk 37 can also be used to control the main battery if necessary (Naval Ordnance and Gunnery, Vol 2 p 7. The adjacent 40 mm mounts can be controlled by the Mk 51 units.

Yes, But Iowa and New Jersey were commissioned with exactly as many Mk51 directors as they had 40mm bofor mounts. But the Mk-37 directors for the 5"/38 proved too slow to track very close enemy aircraft. So extra Mk-51 directors were added to many battleships and cruisers between 1943 and 1944 to help direct 5"/38 mounts against close range threats. So Missouri and Wisconsin seems to have been commission with 6 more Mk 51s than they had 40mm bofor mounts.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

The Mk51 has no range adjustement. It's set to a fixed range. This should make the parallax adjustement considerably easier.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

But they could still be transferred to direct other mounts. A very sophisticated system!

The attached photo shows a boat showed on missouri’s Quarterdeck during the time when she operated the kingfisher, which would have been before April 1945. From the flat sheer, pointed bow and bumper all around, this looks like a 35 foot float plane rearming boat. Since no crane or any davit can reach it at this location, it must be mounted on some roller cradle that can be moved, and secured to tie downs on deck.

Does anyone know if she still carried this boat in August 1945?

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

That photo is from a series taken in Aug. 1944. The boat cradles aft of the 20mm armor are visible in August and September 1945. In my quick scan I did not see a photo with a boat in the cradle.

Here's one from August showing the cradle but no boat.

https://www.history.navy.mil/bin/imageDownload?image=/content/dam/nhhc/our-collections/photography/images/High-Resolution/Battleships/Missouri%20(BB%2063)/80-G-K-4531&rendition=original

Chuck/Jim:

Here is MISSOURI 14 July 1945 and this shows the boat in question:


Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Thanks.

A couple of interesting thing I noted in the photo:

1. The boat in the July 1945 photo is definitely not the same as the one in August 1944 photo. The July 1945 photo definitely shows a 33 foot re-arming boat because the torpedo cradle inside the boat is visible, and the front of the boat terminates in a blunt cut off. The boat in August 1944 has a sharp bow. I think it is a 35 foot rearming boat because it has flat sheer, and bumper all around. See But the canvas cover (which interestingly is clearly not watertight as it leaves gaps where it is laced to the side of the boat) obscures the inside so I can’t be 100% sure. See https://maritime.org/doc/boatcat/index.htm#toc for drawings of both types of boats, and photo of torpedo being loaded into the boat https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/torpedo-being-lowered-into-plane-rearming-boat-news-photo/615313652

2. The inner face of the splinter shield around the 20mm Oerlikons are repainted in a light color, possibly haze gray, in July 1945. In August 1944 the insides of all vertical splinter shields and bulwarks were a dark,color, possibly deck blue.

_________________
Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.