1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)

[Willie]

Hi all again folks:

At the risk of being too demanding, would somebody have pictures of the oil canning effect of the areas around the stern and the bottom between the bilge keels ? I have very little info about the stern, and nothing at all reg. the bottom, and I think it would be advisable to gather some more before doing anything.

Sincerely TIA, and very best regards,

Willie.[/size]

[Willie]

And Hank, thanks for the last pic of USS Stoddard's stern that you have uploaded. One of the very few clear ones I have been able to see.

Sorry I didn't mention that before.

Brgds again,

Willie.

[BB62vet]

Willie,

Not a problem - one comment on your last request - I don't think there was much, if any, oil-canning in the bilge keel area below the waterline. I don't recall seeing that effect on photos I've seen taken of FLETCHER class DDs looking at that area of the hull. But, you may want to verify that before making a decision. The below photo of USS ROSS in 1951 illustrates my point:

By that time in her operational life she would have shown signs of oil-canning as did the other FLETCHERs.

Hope this helps,
Hank

[Rick E Davis]

Willie,

I don't think you need to worry about "oil-canning" below the waterline. I have never really noticed much, except when there had been an "incident" of a 600-lb drop depth charge off the stern that exploded prematurely shortly after the drop. Here are additional images of USS OWEN (DD-568) taken in 1951 (first two images) and 1957 (she was a test ship for different paints - types and manufacturers, so you will notice different conditions over the hull)









Here are some in stream views showing the stern area, close enough to see the oil-canning. There aren't that many closeup views of the stern for these destroyers. The two views of USS AMMEN (DD-527) are unusual in showing both portside and starboard. Note that she has a fairly larger number of "point" dents from "bumping" into other vessels and such.







This view of USS HAZELWOOD (DD-531) during her conversion to a DASH test ship, is nice showing stern and starboard side aft, plus you can see a sister across the way.



Finally, if anyone thinks that "oil-canning" is strictly a function of wave action, some destroyers exhibit oil-canning even before the ship has even been to sea. Such is the case for USS HOEL (DD-533) being fitted out at her builder 17 days prior to delivery to the USN and commissioning.

I hope this satisfies your "OIL-CANNING FETISH" ...

[BB62vet]

Rick,
Those are excellent pix & examples of the oil-canning effect. Thanks for sharing!
Hank

[Willie]

Hi all again.

Mr. Davis, again your pictures are gold worth, and show clearly what is and is not to be found under the waterline, both fore and aft.

And regarding your...

I hope this satisfies your "OIL-CANNING FETISH" ...

...Well it does not, because mine is not a fetish: it is pure addiction, as I can be weeks without end thinking about a certain detail, or travel 150 miles to (and obviously from) a certain place to make the necessary pictures.

As you all ship-holics and boat-addicts very well know, whoever does not have a passion is missing the best part of life.

Anyway, I will have to assume that I should not have done so much oil canning under the waterline. Too bad being a teacher and not a naval engineer.

Giving putty to the whole lot at this stage would make a mess of this area, so I have softened the lines as much as possible fading the effect at the end, just between the keels. It will not be very visible at the end of the construction, and other than this, it will be covered to some extent by the black of the waterline and the dark red of the lower hull.
But after the hard work detailing the lower hull with scoops, intakes, exhausts and so on, this is not the best moment of this construction for me.

On the other hand, the two pics of USS Ammen are of particular value, as they show clearly what the pattern for the oil canning is in the stern areas, with sections differing in length:

This is backed by one of the few pictures that I had previously found, that shows not only severe oil canning effect, but the very same thing in sections length:

USS Ammen pics also confirms the oil canning pattern of the Fletcher class that can be seen in this pic of Velox showing again severe oil canning effect, along with the absence of it on the 1/2" plates around the machine and boiler rooms --as it has been already discussed in this thread-- and also under the screw defenses.

And shadows aside, this other picture shows clearly the vast amount of beating that these Fletcher class plates could cope with.

Actually these are my memories of Jorge Juan�s hull, fore and aft.

I will try to start the stern as soon as posible, and in between, best regards from this side,

Willie.[/size]

[BB62vet]

Of course, the picture below shows the EXTREME measure of oil-canning on a small boat:

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!

Hank

Made ya look!!!!!!

[Rick E Davis]

Willie,

I wasn't trying to insult your "dedication" to detailing in your model the ship that you served on to the greatest degree possible. Your build is the most accurate FLETCHER model I have seen to date.

Your desire to add oil-canning on a destroyer, isn't the first one on this website I have seen. It is a feature that I don't have the patience to attempt.

In my defense, definitions of Fetish and Addiction do have crossovers;

Addiction ... Some addictions also involve an inability to stop partaking in activities, such as gambling, eating, or working. In these circumstances, a person has a behavioral addiction.

Fetish ... an inanimate object worshiped for its supposed magical powers or because it is considered to be inhabited by a spirit. or an object of irrational reverence or obsessive devotion

Both words seem to describe at least to some extent what we do in this modeling hobby when viewed by people not in it.

I have made 77 trips (from four to six days in length) to NARA, that is an addiction or fetish??

[BB62vet]

Rick E. Davis said:

I have made 77 trips (from four to six days in length) to NARA, that is an addiction or fetish??

Rick - that's a PROCLIVITY !!!!
Hank

[Rick E Davis]

Or insanity!!!

[Willie]

Hi there Mr. Davis, Hank and all folks.

Addiction... (...) Fetish... (...)
Both words seem to describe at least to some extent what we do in this modeling hobby when viewed by people not in it.

Fet-iction, it has to be fet-iction, the essence of passion. And I have already --decades ago-- given up any hope of being understood by anybody who is not in it. Many think that warships are as interesting as seeing the paint dry on a wall. I can only say that I cannot understand my life without them.

I have made 77 trips (from four to six days in length) to NARA, that is an addiction or fetish??

LUNACY, it�s pure LUNACY... But that kind of lunacy that I respectfully worship rather than merely admire. Believe me, I would pay big bucks for being with you in one of these excursions...

And Hank,

Of course, the picture below shows the EXTREME measure of oil-canning on a small boat (...) Made ya look!!!!!!

I did !!!

All the best from this side,

Willie.

[Willie]

Hi again Mr. Davis:

Further in your message:

Your desire to add oil-canning on a destroyer (...) is a feature that I don't have the patience to attempt.

I have to say that once I had the correct tool, the process was way easier to do than I had ever anticipated, and three times faster than had always imagined.
I was using these two scalpels, the model suggested by our common friend Marijn:

I started with the white one, but soon changed to the blue one.
I have been carving 4x11 mm. (=0.15x0.43 in.) and 4x4 mm. (=0.15x0.15 in.) areas, and it was no problem at all after some quick testing, but I am confident that I would have done much smaller spaces had it been necessary, because these scalpels can be handled as if they were a pen, and you can draw lines with them, parallel to the ones you have already drawn as a guide.
I started every space using the point section of the blade to carve the initial area, and finished with longer strokes of the full curve to to finish it, simply varying the angle of the hand very slightly. These longer strokes with the full curve will unify the area, and will also make sanding virtually redundant.
Unavoidable mistakes aside, the work can be really precise, and mistakes in oil canning can only add to realism.
I am not sure in a 1/350 (or smaller) scale, but at 1/144 the difference in the hull will be so huge, so inmense, so definitive, that you will never regret to have done it. And believe me, it is easy.

Again thanks a million for your always precious pictures and info, and all the best from this side of the North Atlantic,

Willie.[/size]

[JIM BAUMANN]

@ Willie-- your quest is a worthy one... and... I am most impressed !!

@ Rick E Davis that is a very very impressive selection of high quality images!!

Bravo all!

JIM B

[Willie]

Hi all modelers again,

Und vielemals danke, Meister Baumann, for your very kind remark.

After studying carefully the last pictures, I have come to the conclusion that --even if by no means similar to the upper surfaces--, there was actually noticeable oil canning under the waterline before the bilge keels:

I don�t know how did USS Ross get her battle scars in this area, but I can very well imagine that this is the way USS Stembel was getting her own ones in september 1954:

I could live with the previous, already discussed canning mistakes, but honor is now satisfied, and my life, easier.

All the best from this side,

Willie.[/size]

[Willie]

And hi once more.

After the study of the Fletcher�s transom using the pictures of USS Cassin Young and USS Ammen, I decided to use this kind of grid, displaying five horizontal sections:

Once this was done, I came across this other picture of Velos, the former USS Charrette. Even if very blurr, it is invaluable to show that the oil canning grid in the stern parts of the ship is way more complicated than I had noticed before. This is what I mean:

This led to a further research, and I found more evidence:

I have to say that I was not sure at all about the vertical thinner section highlighted in the pictures, and supposed at first that it would be an effect of oil canning, but USS Ammen has got it too in the same position, confirmed by other pictures of other ships, and this solves all doubts:

This other picture of good old Velos/USS Charrette shows again that the transition from boards to transom is again more complicated than it seemed at first:

I was really surprised at first of the high freeboard of Velos and USS Cassing Young, until I realized that they are museum ships, with no ammo, fuel or water on board.

With all the info gathered, I think this is what has to be done, the bigger sections being 11.0x4.5 mm. and the smaller ones reduced accordingly. Some of the fore sections will also be doubled:

I would appreciate any input on mistakes that you can see, before I start cutting.

TIA, and again best regards from this side,

Willie.[/size]

[Willie]

Hi again all folks.

The oil canning of the stern was much more time consuming, and much more complicated to do because of the difficult position in which I had to place my hand, what did not benefit precision either.
This was the first step:

Once the lines were deleted, the thing is lie this:

The transom was even more difficult to do, and some mistakes were unavoidable:

Some of these mistakes are easy to mend, but even with some others here and there, the difference with the original hull is so huge that what has been done can be accepted for the service.
I am not going to do much more in the flat bottom, other than some details in different places --more or less what can be seen on deck in the last picture-- as according to the pictorial evidence, there is virtually no oil canning to do in this area.

I hope you like it, and very best regards from this side,

Willie. [/size]

[Willie]

And here you are USS Preston showing corpus delicti, the thin steel plates that made oil canning possible and my construction so funny.

I have not been able to find the details of this accident, only that it happened in 1957, but other than the broken plates, there is no visible damage, what shows how tough these hulls anyhow were.
This other picture is of same USS Preston, one year earlier, 1956:

The small amount of damage means that this accident was a mere touch and go, but, chocks and all, the peak turned to 45� !!! We have to come to the conclusion that USS Preston had a kind of magnetism to other ships, or maybe a naval sex-appeal, or that being 13-14 years old at the time, teenage has always involved a certain amount of playground quarreling .

All the best again,

Willie.[/size]

[JIM BAUMANN]

I think your hull treatment is remarkably good, pretty consistent and very very effective!

Bravo

JIM B

[Rick E Davis]

The 1956 image of USS PRESTON (DD-795) shows damage from a collision with USS WASP (CVA-18) in July 1956. Apparently she hit under an overhang of the carrier. The 1957 image (dated 13 May 1957) looks to be from a collision with another destroyer or smaller escort. Which destroyer/ship I don't recall since I failed to scan the letter (if attached) that came with these photos.

It was pretty common for destroyers to be involved in collisions with carriers or resupply ships (normally during resupply ops when a sudden wave could push them together) or with other destroyers during maneuvers.

[marijn van gils]

Fantastic work Willie!

I don't see any mistakes. If anything, any irregularities will add to the realism!

I think it is a good idea to have less below the waterline, and none on the flat area near the stern. The contrast with the heavily oil-canned areas will make those look more realistic; otherwise the hull surface would look too uniform.