The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:55 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2442 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:52 am 
Online

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3437
Eg,

Something I keep forgetting to comment on from earlier. It was standard practice when a ship was dry-docked to, if time allowed, to clean the bottom and repaint as needed. USS ARIZONA with her collision damage below the waterline, would have likely had a complete cleaning and repainting done since she was in dry-dock for an extended time of two weeks, which was more than enough time to accomplish that task. Whether done by yard workers or her crew or a combination, I don't know. That didn't mean that the hull above the waterline needed to be repainted, but it could have been done with 5-D if available or with something else.

If you look at the overturned USS OKLAHOMA, her bottom looks very clean of barnacles.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:47 pm
Posts: 80
Rick E Davis wrote:
Eg,

Something I keep forgetting to comment on from earlier. It was standard practice when a ship was dry-docked to, if time allowed, to clean the bottom and repaint as needed. USS ARIZONA with her collision damage below the waterline, would have likely had a complete cleaning and repainting done since she was in dry-dock for an extended time of two weeks, which was more than enough time to accomplish that task. Whether done by yard workers or her crew or a combination, I don't know. That didn't mean that the hull above the waterline needed to be repainted, but it could have been done with 5-D if available or with something else.

If you look at the overturned USS OKLAHOMA, her bottom looks very clean of barnacles.


I did cover the fact that the Arizona's hull was scraped while she was in drydock, I have anecdotal crew reports that it happened and I did mention that in a previous post...

At this point I think I have what I need, and thank you all for clarifying much...

You guys are the experts in this, all I can do is read what it available and try to piece it all together... just too many maybes and what if's .... feels like running around in circles...

I get the distinct feeling that even the documents I cited are wrong......

I'm only going to build a model of her not reconstruct her history....

Thank you for your responses and the info provided it has helped a bunch and I won't bother you guys anymore over the what if minutiae ...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 10058
Location: EG48
A couple other sets of information. Conventional wisdom for a while has been that the Atlantic Fleet did all of the experimenting due to Admiral King's personal interest, but we know now that the Pacific Fleet had their own, separate experiments. For example, Admiral Halsey had a number of camouflage flight deck experiments run on Enterprise in 1941. We just don't have as much of the documentation - I've actually found more about Pacific Theater 1941 camouflage in the CINCLANT files than CINCPAC!

There's also organization to consider. 1941 was a transitional year for the Navy in terms of organization. While there was a Commander in Chief, Atlantic and Commander in Chief, Pacific, the fleet was still organized into four main forces, Battle Force, Scouting Force, Base Force, and Patrol Force. You can see the structure and organization in this document I posted, the "United States Fleet Organization, Second Quarter, Fiscal Year, 1941." This changed by the end of the war but it took 1941 and 1942 for it to happen.

What doesn't often get mentioned is that Base Force was essentially the supply chain for the fleet - ships communicated with Base Force for paint for at least part of 1941. I've got correspondence from Argonne (Base Force Flagship) in the March/April time frame tallying up the reported stocks of pre-war #5 Standard Navy Gray for conversion to 5-D Dark Gray, for example. I did take a dive at NARA looking for Base Force correspondence, but like many quests it ended in frustration. The "finding aids" were the original box lists that the Navy turned over - I could see folders for S19 (preservative coating aka paint) but they were carry-overs or "continued" from the comprehensive list of ALL boxes and were crossed out because - surprise - the Navy didn't think they were worth turning over. :censored_2:

Pearl Harbor was a busy place - the Navy had CinCPAC, the Commandant of the 14th Naval District, Navy Base Pearl Harbor, Navy Yard Pearl Harbor, and more as permanent commands or "activities." Pearl Harbor Navy Yard lost their paint memo for a bout six weeks (incidentally - that also establishes about a two-week travel time for correspondence from the mainland), leading to some confusion and delay in the shipyard side I'm sure.

In summary - Pacific Fleet camouflage was a mess the entire year of 1941

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 10058
Location: EG48
Egilman wrote:
Thank you for your responses and the info provided it has helped a bunch and I won't bother you guys anymore over the what if minutiae ...


I believe two things can be true at the same time.

On one hand, Arizona's colour the morning of December 7th had no material effect on the war, and the sailors who died that day probably didn't care what color the paint that was burning along with them was. It is an academic point.

On the other, one of the ways we pay respect to those veterans is by building representations of their ships, vehicles, etc.. It is entirely reasonable to consider her appearance on the day of such loss important so as to do an accurate representation and homage.

We can debate differences of opinion, but getting nasty about it is where I try and draw the line. I haven't always been successful when dealing with difficult people, but I don't think we should shy away from minutia and theories.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:06 pm 
Online

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3437
EG,

That is fine. Almost everyone who looks at the original documents from the Pacific Fleet in 1941 on the subject of camo, comes to different conclusions based on what they saw/found. If you read the notes hand written on the cover pages of documents, you are often enlightened to what the thoughts and actions of those involved "really" were. I'm not all that crazy about digging into "USS ARIZONA" final camo scheme. Many others have done that. I was a lot more interested in the destroyers involved in the camo experiments and just when they wore specific schemes. Plus when Pacific destroyers transitioned to 5-N Ms 11 from 5-S Ms 11. I had scanned a fair number of photos of destroyers from the late 1941 period into early 1941 that were either unidentified or undated/or poorly dated (or both). Sometimes, I would find the same image in two or more places with different 80-G numbers and different dates!!! Thanks to Dana's document scans, ironically he found the bulk of these documents in BuAir records, I had pages and pages of the evaluation reports (some 500 of the 600 document pages he provided were evaluation reports) that I didn't have to go find. Trying to ID ships painted in 5-S or 5-N in the late 1941 into early 1942 photos isn't easy. Too much variation in contrast possible with B&W film and print processing. Normally, 5-D is easier to ID. The bulk (maybe all the WWII and earlier prints?) of the 80-G series prints on caption cards, have NO ORIGINAL NEGATIVES to study to determine if print processing was too dark or too light. With these documents, and a lot of digging in Deck Logs, I have been able to ID several destroyers in the process and narrow down dates for specific photos.

One thing to note. In virtually all directives calling for applying a "new" camo scheme before and during WWII, there is a statement about the ship/division CO has the final say. During the "Dazzle" camo period in 1944, some Destroyer Div/Ron DID NOT paint into dazzle assigned them. The human command factor and that person's relationship with higher ups, played into decisions, particularly before the attack. Something I simply choose not to dig very deep into since it becomes subjective guessing what someone was thinking. But, I found some interesting personal connections involved in the Summer 1941 evaluations, their prior assignments and how they impacted the camo on later commands.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:15 pm
Posts: 744
I believe I posted this footage from Ensign Weeden before but I now know what we are witnessing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWLLIZ_hVu8
There are basically 2 parts to this footage. The first part opens with scenes from Hawaii and then quickly shows a few crews quarters on Arizona. The second part of this film actually happened before Arizona arrived in Hawaii on February 3rd, 1941. This second part of the film shows a ceremony on her main deck on January 23rd, 1941. This was the day that Rear Admiral Isaac C. Kidd relieved Real Admiral Russell Willson as Commander Battleship Division One.
This footage is only 10 days removed from when Arizona left Puget Sound after her final refit and was filmed in California at San Pedro. Four days later on January 27th Arizona steamed for Pearl Harbor.
In the ceremony you can see many officers from other ships gathering for the event. Then Admiral Willson appears from below decks. Then we see a shot of the mainmast sporting the brand new birdbath and we see the lowering of Admiral Willson's flag from the mainmast. Admiral Kidd appears and his flag is raised on the mainmast. We see the two shake hands after the ceremony.
This is a very rare look at both of these Admiral's.
I believe we also get a look at Captain Harold C. Train handing paperwork to his Commander Samuel Earle Johnson. Captain Train himself would be relieved by Captain Franklin B. Van Valkenburgh on February 5th, 1941 while Arizona was moored at Pearl Harbor.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:15 pm
Posts: 744
Since our last conversation about Arizona entering drydock on Oct 27, 1941 and EG stated that if any painting took place it was probably the last couple of weeks in November I decided to try to piece together her final month before her demise.
First I went to Stillwell's Arizona book for reference. He has an appendix with most of Arizona's deck log summaries for most of her existence. But the logs end at October 31, 1941. The following note is entered for November and December. "The Arizona's deck logs for November and December 1941 were not sent to Washington, D.C., prior to the ship's destruction and thus are not available for research."

My next stop was USS Pennsylvania's deck logs. Her crew did a great job of listing the comings and goings of the fleet at Pearl. I found a lot of information there but there are still some holes because Pennsylvania left Pearl between Nov 22-28 leaving me without any info on Arizona. Here is what I have so far:

Nov. 12 - 0858 USS Arizona undocked and moored at Berth B-2
Nov. 13 - 0814 USS Oklahoma moved into Drydock. 1003 USS Arizona underway and stood out.
Nov. 14 - At sea (not sure with which ships if any)
Nov. 15 - At sea (not sure with which ships if any)
Nov. 16 - At sea (not sure with which ships if any)
Nov. 17 - 0920 USS Arizona stood in and moored at 1007. (Not sure which Berth. It was not her normal Berth F-7 because Pennsylvania was there and her log does not indicate that Arizona moored with her.)
Nov. 18 - At Pearl. Berth unknown. 1457 Fire on Arizona. Away Fire and Rescue Party.
Nov. 19 - At Pearl. Berth unknown.
Nov. 20 - At Pearl. Berth unknown.
Nov. 21 - At Pearl. Berth unknown.
Nov. 22 - At Pearl. Berth unknown.
Nov. 23 - Unknown because Pennsylvania was at sea.
Nov. 24 - Unknown because Pennsylvania was at sea.
Nov. 25 - Unknown because Pennsylvania was at sea.
Nov. 26 - Unknown because Pennsylvania was at sea.
Nov. 27 - Unknown because Pennsylvania was at sea.
Nov. 28 - Unknown because Pennsylvania was at sea.
Nov. 29 - At Sea. Also at 0852 USS Oklahoma left Drydock and moored at 1010 dock.
Nov. 30 - At Sea. Also at 0545 USS Oklahoma got underway and stood out.
Dec. 1 - Pennsylvania's deck logs state that BATDIV 1 is in port but there is no log entries of when they supposedly stood in so I'm a bit skeptical of this entry.
Dec. 2 - At sea.
Dec. 3 - At Sea.
Dec. 4 - At Sea.
Dec. 5 - 0920 USS Arizona stood in and moored at Berth F-7.
Dec. 6 - Berth F-7
Dec. 7 - Attack.

My next logical step to filling in some of these holes is to check the logs of USS Nevada and USS Oklahoma (if they exists).
At this point there is a possibility of 10 days between Nov. 18-28 that she could have been painted while at Pearl.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:15 pm
Posts: 744
This still is taken from film. It was shot in March 1942. There is an open barge moored to her port quarter obstructing the view of most of what remains of her #3 and #4 turrets. Only the starboard side wall of turret #3 can be seen above the barge. Nothing here gives any indication of any other color than 5-D here. Notice also the ship moored aft of Arizona is still in MS-1 camo.
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:12 pm
Posts: 2681
overall color does not look right as tho too much grey or overcast.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013916b.jpg
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013912b.jpg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:47 pm
Posts: 80
All I have to say is explain this....

Attachment:
File comment: USS Arizona in 1958.... Definitely Blue, not Black/Grey
643520624_BATTLESHIPCOLORATPEARLHARBOR.jpg.897438618017cce9492ddb4ad225e2bf.jpg
643520624_BATTLESHIPCOLORATPEARLHARBOR.jpg.897438618017cce9492ddb4ad225e2bf.jpg [ 197 KiB | Viewed 195 times ]


10-12 years after the attack, the deteriorating paint on the hull is bright blue, it wasn't repainted after the attack as Mike D has the info on what was repainted and with what... No sign of that here...

5-D deteriorated into a black that was darker than black and shiny, and Commanders were reporting problems with colorfastness and adhesion as soon as five months after application...

The ships was in 5-S or 5-N as those are the two colors used in the time frame with the same base paint... AND we know they didn't receive orders to repaint into 5-N to after the attack...

The ship was in 5-S, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but the shots of her in '58 seal the deal for me especially with confirmation that they did not repaint her.....

Now if one want's to argue color shift? please color shift the snapshot taken from the movie as well, it sure appears shifted too dark to me... That ship behind the AZ in the shot had to be a rare ship indeed that would still be in 5-D in March of 42 if fleet orders had been followed, 5-D was discontinued in June of 41, and in November there were nothing but stocks of 5-S available to paint with.... and in March she would have orders to be in 5-N.....

As I said lighten that pic up it's muted and dark shifted...

I believe the Ship astern is an AOG, (a T-1 gasoline tanker) and has to be painted in overall 5-N.... as those were the paint instructions for new construction and those style tankers were commissioned after the attack.

EG


Last edited by Egilman on Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 10058
Location: EG48
And this is why I stick with archival documents.....

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:47 pm
Posts: 80
Tracy White wrote:
And this is why I stick with archival documents.....


I sympathise....


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:15 pm
Posts: 744
Egilman wrote:
All I have to say is explain this....


I can explain your pics about as much as you can explain this 1951 one.
Image

Color film is VERY untrustworthy and you shouldn't jump to conclusions based on it.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:50 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 11264
Location: Calgary, AB/Surrey, B.C., Canada
Jeff Sharp wrote:

Color film is VERY untrustworthy and you shouldn't jump to conclusions based on it.



Then why did you post a colour film and use it to claim 5-D?

_________________
De quoi s'agit-il?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:47 pm
Posts: 80
Jeff, that snapshot is also very dark shifted, the what should be very bright green foliage in the background is almost completely grey......

The Life magazine shots I posted, admittedly color shifted and a bit darker than they should be, still show the bright green foliage.... Hence they are a lot closer than the film shots.....

And we know for a fact that crew testimony in group stated that she was repainted in blue, the only question was how much of her was repainted in 5-S and when.

These are the facts in hand, the evidence is real and proveable....

She wasn't in 5-D....

EG


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:15 pm
Posts: 744
Hi Timmy, I did not claim it to be 5-D. I said "Nothing here gives any indication of any other color than 5-D here." Please don't twist my words.
EG, if you have David Doyle's book "USS Arizona" Squadron At Sea, go to page 113. He has the exact photo you just posted. Notice how much darker the paint is in his photo compared to yours.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:15 pm
Posts: 744
Egilman wrote:
.5-D deteriorated into a black that was darker than black and shiny, and Commanders were reporting problems with colorfastness and adhesion as soon as five months after application...


Are you aware that there was at least 3 different versions of 5-D that was used? Which version is this referring to? Do you know which version Arizona was painted in?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:47 pm
Posts: 80
Jeff Sharp wrote:
Hi Timmy, I did not claim it to be 5-D. I said "Nothing here gives any indication of any other color than 5-D here." Please don't twist my words.
EG, if you have David Doyle's book "USS Arizona" Squadron At Sea, go to page 113. He has the exact photo you just posted. Notice how much darker the paint is in his photo compared to yours.


Yes I have his book, I have also read one of the forums where he was explaining his editing of that shot into what his opinion of what it should be based upon the rust colors.......

His pics are heavily edited to support his argument.... therefore very unconvincing to me....

His pics show the blue edited to appear black.... Photoshop can do wonderous things to pics, make them appear anyway you like....

My copies are not edited.... (and I absolutely refuse to edit them, my expert friends in photo retouching say Mr Doyle's pics are not realistic given the pics he started with)

If I can find the link to the online discussion I'll post it. Mr Doyle is on the grey/black side of the argument and has been since the beginning of the controversy... guess what? so was I until I learned a few things here....


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:47 pm
Posts: 80
Jeff Sharp wrote:
Egilman wrote:
.5-D deteriorated into a black that was darker than black and shiny, and Commanders were reporting problems with colorfastness and adhesion as soon as five months after application...


Are you aware that there was at least 3 different versions of 5-D that was used? Which version is this referring to? Do you know which version Arizona was painted in?


There are two versions in the official Navy records, full on 5-D formulation, and modified 5-D equivalent made by adding tinting paste to pre-war Standard Navy Grey...

She was painted in official 5-D in Bremerton during her yard availability in January by the yard crew. She was one of the first ships painted in it....


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:15 pm
Posts: 744
[/quote] There are two versions in the official Navy records, full on 5-D formulation, and modified 5-D equivalent made by adding tinting paste to pre-war Standard Navy Grey...

She was painted in official 5-D in Bremerton during her yard availability in January by the yard crew. She was one of the first ships painted in it....[/quote]

How sure of both of these statements are you? Be very careful and think about it before you answer me.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2442 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group