At 'Em Arizona Fans!

[Jeff Sharp]

Since our last conversation about Arizona entering drydock on Oct 27, 1941 and EG stated that if any painting took place it was probably the last couple of weeks in November I decided to try to piece together her final month before her demise.
First I went to Stillwell's Arizona book for reference. He has an appendix with most of Arizona's deck log summaries for most of her existence. But the logs end at October 31, 1941. The following note is entered for November and December. "The Arizona's deck logs for November and December 1941 were not sent to Washington, D.C., prior to the ship's destruction and thus are not available for research."

My next stop was USS Pennsylvania's deck logs. Her crew did a great job of listing the comings and goings of the fleet at Pearl. I found a lot of information there but there are still some holes because Pennsylvania left Pearl between Nov 22-28 leaving me without any info on Arizona. Here is what I have so far:

Nov. 12 - 0858 USS Arizona undocked and moored at Berth B-2
Nov. 13 - 0814 USS Oklahoma moved into Drydock. 1003 USS Arizona underway and stood out.
Nov. 14 - At sea (not sure with which ships if any)
Nov. 15 - At sea (not sure with which ships if any)
Nov. 16 - At sea (not sure with which ships if any)
Nov. 17 - 0920 USS Arizona stood in and moored at 1007. (Not sure which Berth. It was not her normal Berth F-7 because Pennsylvania was there and her log does not indicate that Arizona moored with her.)
Nov. 18 - At Pearl. Berth unknown. 1457 Fire on Arizona. Away Fire and Rescue Party.
Nov. 19 - At Pearl. Berth unknown. Milton Hurst returns aboard USS Chaumont from year long Navy School and he writes that USS Arizona is not the same light gray as when he left her. She is now painted dark gray with light gray tops
Nov. 20 - At Pearl. Berth unknown.
Nov. 21 - At Pearl. Berth unknown.
Nov. 22 - At Pearl. Berth unknown.
Nov. 23 - Unknown because Pennsylvania was at sea.
Nov. 24 - Unknown because Pennsylvania was at sea.
Nov. 25 - Unknown because Pennsylvania was at sea.
Nov. 26 - Unknown because Pennsylvania was at sea.
Nov. 27 - Unknown because Pennsylvania was at sea.
Nov. 28 - Unknown because Pennsylvania was at sea.
Nov. 29 - At Sea. Also at 0852 USS Oklahoma left Drydock and moored at 1010 dock.
Nov. 30 - At Sea. Also at 0545 USS Oklahoma got underway and stood out.
Dec. 1 - Pennsylvania's deck logs state that BATDIV 1 is in port but there is no log entries of when they supposedly stood in so I'm a bit skeptical of this entry.
Dec. 2 - At sea.
Dec. 3 - At Sea.
Dec. 4 - At Sea.
Dec. 5 - 0920 USS Arizona stood in and moored at Berth F-7.
Dec. 6 - Berth F-7
Dec. 7 - Attack.

My next logical step to filling in some of these holes is to check the logs of USS Nevada and USS Oklahoma (if they exists).
At this point there is a possibility of 10 days between Nov. 18-28 that she could have been painted while at Pearl.

[Jeff Sharp]

This still is taken from film. It was shot in March 1942. There is an open barge moored to her port quarter obstructing the view of most of what remains of her #3 and #4 turrets. Only the starboard side wall of turret #3 can be seen above the barge. Nothing here gives any indication of any other color than 5-D here. Notice also the ship moored aft of Arizona is still in MS-1 camo.

[Egilman]

All I have to say is explain this....

USS Arizona in 1958.... Definitely Blue, not Black/Grey

10-12 years after the attack, the deteriorating paint on the hull is bright blue, it wasn't repainted after the attack as Mike D has the info on what was repainted and with what... No sign of that here...

5-D deteriorated into a black that was darker than black and shiny, and Commanders were reporting problems with colorfastness and adhesion as soon as five months after application...

The ships was in 5-S or 5-N as those are the two colors used in the time frame with the same base paint... AND we know they didn't receive orders to repaint into 5-N to after the attack...

The ship was in 5-S, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but the shots of her in '58 seal the deal for me especially with confirmation that they did not repaint her.....

Now if one want's to argue color shift? please color shift the snapshot taken from the movie as well, it sure appears shifted too dark to me... That ship behind the AZ in the shot had to be a rare ship indeed that would still be in 5-D in March of 42 if fleet orders had been followed, 5-D was discontinued in June of 41, and in November there were nothing but stocks of 5-S available to paint with.... and in March she would have orders to be in 5-N.....

As I said lighten that pic up it's muted and dark shifted...

I believe the Ship astern is an AOG, (a T-1 gasoline tanker) and has to be painted in overall 5-N.... as those were the paint instructions for new construction and those style tankers were commissioned after the attack.

EG

[Tracy White]

And this is why I stick with archival documents.....

[Egilman]

And this is why I stick with archival documents.....

I sympathise....

[Jeff Sharp]

All I have to say is explain this....

I can explain your pics about as much as you can explain this 1951 one.


Color film is VERY untrustworthy and you shouldn't jump to conclusions based on it.

[Timmy C]

Color film is VERY untrustworthy and you shouldn't jump to conclusions based on it.

Then why did you post a colour film and use it to claim 5-D?

[Egilman]

Jeff, that snapshot is also very dark shifted, the what should be very bright green foliage in the background is almost completely grey......

The Life magazine shots I posted, admittedly color shifted and a bit darker than they should be, still show the bright green foliage.... Hence they are a lot closer than the film shots.....

And we know for a fact that crew testimony in group stated that she was repainted in blue, the only question was how much of her was repainted in 5-S and when.

These are the facts in hand, the evidence is real and proveable....

She wasn't in 5-D....

EG

[Jeff Sharp]

Hi Timmy, I did not claim it to be 5-D. I said "Nothing here gives any indication of any other color than 5-D here." Please don't twist my words.
EG, if you have David Doyle's book "USS Arizona" Squadron At Sea, go to page 113. He has the exact photo you just posted. Notice how much darker the paint is in his photo compared to yours.

[Jeff Sharp]

.5-D deteriorated into a black that was darker than black and shiny, and Commanders were reporting problems with colorfastness and adhesion as soon as five months after application...

Are you aware that there was at least 3 different versions of 5-D that was used? Which version is this referring to? Do you know which version Arizona was painted in?

[Egilman]

Hi Timmy, I did not claim it to be 5-D. I said "Nothing here gives any indication of any other color than 5-D here." Please don't twist my words.
EG, if you have David Doyle's book "USS Arizona" Squadron At Sea, go to page 113. He has the exact photo you just posted. Notice how much darker the paint is in his photo compared to yours.

Yes I have his book, I have also read one of the forums where he was explaining his editing of that shot into what his opinion of what it should be based upon the rust colors.......

His pics are heavily edited to support his argument.... therefore very unconvincing to me....

His pics show the blue edited to appear black.... Photoshop can do wonderous things to pics, make them appear anyway you like....

My copies are not edited.... (and I absolutely refuse to edit them, my expert friends in photo retouching say Mr Doyle's pics are not realistic given the pics he started with)

If I can find the link to the online discussion I'll post it. Mr Doyle is on the grey/black side of the argument and has been since the beginning of the controversy... guess what? so was I until I learned a few things here....

[Egilman]

.5-D deteriorated into a black that was darker than black and shiny, and Commanders were reporting problems with colorfastness and adhesion as soon as five months after application...

Are you aware that there was at least 3 different versions of 5-D that was used? Which version is this referring to? Do you know which version Arizona was painted in?

There are two versions in the official Navy records, full on 5-D formulation, and modified 5-D equivalent made by adding tinting paste to pre-war Standard Navy Grey...

She was painted in official 5-D in Bremerton during her yard availability in January by the yard crew. She was one of the first ships painted in it....

[Jeff Sharp]

[/quote] There are two versions in the official Navy records, full on 5-D formulation, and modified 5-D equivalent made by adding tinting paste to pre-war Standard Navy Grey...

She was painted in official 5-D in Bremerton during her yard availability in January by the yard crew. She was one of the first ships painted in it....[/quote]

How sure of both of these statements are you? Be very careful and think about it before you answer me.

[Jeff Sharp]

Here is 1 more version of 5-D you were unaware of.


This is USS Arizona on January 23, 1941 after she left Bremerton.


This is USS Arizona on April 1, 1941 more than a month before she was painted into some version of 5-D at Pearl Harbor.

[Tracy White]

Jeff is right. The orders for 5-D may have come out in January, but the Navy was not ready to issue until much later. Photo evidence from progress photos of the construction of Drydock 2 shows battleship row in #5 Standard Navy Gray on 10 May 1941, only one out of six still in #5 SNG on 4 June. Somewhere I have a photo from the end of May which is about 50-50 but I can't find it right now so I can't give you the date or count. I have wondered if the official paint was ever issued at all, given that the order to stop production came relatively shortly after the ships were first painted in the conversion formula.

I do not have a strong opinion on the matter because of all of the conflicting data and reasons for and against. I am much more comfortable admitting that I do not know - while I would love to have an answer and be able to paint an Arizona on December 7th with confidence I find it much more true to state that we do not know for sure. It is all a matter of opinion at this point.

For what it's worth, David did not process the photos for his book - the publisher did. And he was more or less forced to write an opinion for the book. He would have rather not, given the controversy and uncertainty.

[Fliger747]

Ah, generating a lot more heat than light. As a photographer of long standing, reaching deep into the "Phlegm" era, both color an Black and White... Photographs, even (especially?) color ones are virtually useless in accurately telling what color we are looking at without a calibrated standard present. Especially in the 30's and 40's the film may not even be panchromatic (instead only blue sensitive) and if panchromatic usually used with a colored filter which can very startlingly change the relative tonal portrayal of colors. Even modern digital cameras have a different color response and range than the (usual) eyeball.

Museum restorers are very interested in historical color. I am reminded of a particular F4U Corsair in NZ. It had been repainted a number of times but the Museum was interested in an accurate restoration during it's Pacific Fleet service. At least they had the aircraft and slow worried away the layers of paint till they got down to the layer they deemed correct then had special paint mixed to match.

I mix my own model paints, not for trying to paint a ship on a certain day, but from being 400 miles from the nearest hobby shop. I use the available paint chips for USN colors of the era. I asked my dad about what his ship was painted during WWII, he said... "Gray".

So we do the best we can, sometimes we know, sometimes not.

Cheers: Tom

[Egilman]

.....
This is USS Arizona on January 23, 1941 after she left Bremerton.
......
This is USS Arizona on April 1, 1941 more than a month before she was painted into some version of 5-D at Pearl Harbor.
.....

Thank you, no need to challenge, just bring forth the information..... I see that I was wrong.... I'll add the info to my data....

Still, does nothing to change my analysis of her final color as we all have seen the pic of her in drydock Nov. '41 getting her collision damage repaired and her color is obviously 5-D of whatever formulation.... Crew testimony that she wasn't repainted in drydock cause the crew repainted her... (if she was the repair crew would have painted her, those pesky regulations you know) Crew testimony is that in November she was being loaded with this bright blue paint and they were called out enmasse to repaint her.... (hence she wasn't repainted in drydock)

How much of her was repainted is still a question and we have narrowed down the time to the latter half/third week of November..... All the evidence points to she had the opportunity to repaint at that point and only that point.... now all we need to find is documentary evidence acknowledging that it was actually done to put the Dec 7th color controversy to bed...

There are color films out there of the damage recovery work being done at Pearl... those films have fairly good color references to 5-D, 5-S and the red lead they used for preservation....

I wish there was a way to post such here... They were moving a battleship into drydock, you can clearly see blue on her stacks, a for & aft cage masted battleship I think, might be the Tennessee.... Red lead all over her bridge and after turrets, better color references than I've seen anywhere else.... The Arizona wasn't the only ship painted in 5-S...

Jeff, Do you have any proof that she wasn't? as that was the initial challenge over my clearly posted prior conclusions......

EG

[Egilman]

Jeff is right. The orders for 5-D may have come out in January, but the Navy was not ready to issue until much later. Photo evidence from progress photos of the construction of Drydock 2 shows battleship row in #5 Standard Navy Gray on 10 May 1941, only one out of six still in #5 SNG on 4 June. Somewhere I have a photo from the end of May which is about 50-50 but I can't find it right now so I can't give you the date or count. I have wondered if the official paint was ever issued at all, given that the order to stop production came relatively shortly after the ships were first painted in the conversion formula.

I do not have a strong opinion on the matter because of all of the conflicting data and reasons for and against. I am much more comfortable admitting that I do not know - while I would love to have an answer and be able to paint an Arizona on December 7th with confidence I find it much more true to state that we do not know for sure. It is all a matter of opinion at this point.

For what it's worth, David did not process the photos for his book - the publisher did. And he was more or less forced to write an opinion for the book. He would have rather not, given the controversy and uncertainty.

I acknowledge when I'm wrong and I was wrong, but I got more information that is correct even though I wasn't looking for any....

As I said before I have the info I need to make my judgment as to what color she was, on that specific day, and I haven't seem anything to rate changing that assessment yet, Jeff's posting from the Pensy's deck log just went to confirm what I already knew about her movements post drydocking, She spent three days at sea testing her repair, a week or ten days in Pearl and five days out at gunnery practice which she returned from December 5th The vestal tied up along side that evening.... Early morning December 6th the Vestal was moved out of the way and she was turned around, (so the bow pointed out the channel, battleships were too big to turn themselves around) the Vestal being re-moored next to her... (the Vestal wasn't turned around) No further movements after that...

As far as the images in David's book, I'm surprised that David would write something as an author for publishing that he really didn't believe...... I've gotta find that forum discussion on those altered pictures.... It says a lot about them being altered and the opinions of those commenting on their opinions of accuracy..... To me, reading it, I was struck by all the opinions being posted of how an altered picture was being considered accurate by what I thought were reasonable people, until I realized they were arguing and discussing a specific belief and the altered pictures were justifying their already decided upon conclusions... It was very revealing on the depth of the color issue.... A lot of people have staked a lot of heavy emotions into being right on this paint color issue....

Thank you Tracy, I'm still looking for more info, if I find it I'll post it and let the world know but as far as my future AZ model, everyone knows where I stand...

EG

Ps: I ran across another online conversation the other day, people are still claiming despite the evidence, that the AZ's turret tops were not painted red, nor any of the other battleships their colors. I find it hard to believe that there are still people arguing that with the evidence we have in hand proving the turret top colors were real beyond any shadow of doubt...
People come to a conclusion and do not want to give up their erroneous beliefs despite any evidence... That still amazes me to this day...

[Egilman]

Ah, generating a lot more heat than light. As a photographer of long standing, reaching deep into the "Phlegm" era, both color an Black and White... Photographs, even (especially?) color ones are virtually useless in accurately telling what color we are looking at without a calibrated standard present. Especially in the 30's and 40's the film may not even be panchromatic (instead only blue sensitive) and if panchromatic usually used with a colored filter which can very startlingly change the relative tonal portrayal of colors. Even modern digital cameras have a different color response and range than the (usual) eyeball.

Museum restorers are very interested in historical color. I am reminded of a particular F4U Corsair in NZ. It had been repainted a number of times but the Museum was interested in an accurate restoration during it's Pacific Fleet service. At least they had the aircraft and slow worried away the layers of paint till they got down to the layer they deemed correct then had special paint mixed to match.

I mix my own model paints, not for trying to paint a ship on a certain day, but from being 400 miles from the nearest hobby shop. I use the available paint chips for USN colors of the era. I asked my dad about what his ship was painted during WWII, he said... "Gray".

So we do the best we can, sometimes we know, sometimes not.

Cheers: Tom

Hi Tom, that's what my photography nut friends, (a few of them are professional photo re-touchers) tell me as well. you can tweak things a bit trying to get life into an otherwise dull lifeless photo, but you cannot take it to extremes. If you go to the extent of completely changing a color you have changed the picture away from what it actually was... Your then in the realm of photo interpretation based upon opinion rather than correction... Without a calibrated matrix of what it was the day it was taken there is no way to tell how close it is to real. in those cases they say it is best to leave it alone and let it speak for itself... That's is what they told me about the Life Magazine pics compared to the "Corrected" pics in Davids book....

The life pics are very close to what it actually was, understanding that they are color shifted over time. In their opinions, when they were freshly taken the colors were probably even more vivid than they are in the untouched pics... And they also pointed out we are discussing a digital copy of them, it's not even a real picture, it's an image of a picture... They would love to see the actual negatives the life photographer got, the whole sequence even, and we all laughed at that...

All we can do is the best we can with the evidence we have... Very True...

EG

[Egilman]

Ok I dug through the archive and found this video I guess I downloaded 4-5 years ago... Gonna post some pics from it.... It's actually the clearest color video of Pearl Harbor around Mid '42.... It's a compilation video, it starts with scenes of the navy tugs pulling the Wee Vee to drydock.... you get to see 5-S on the Wee Vee (stacks and starboard hull and her scorched blackened port side from where the oil fires were raging and she was taking a lot of heat) you get to see a tug in several shots, one in 5-S, and later on one in 5-D..... we also get a shot of the bow of the Arizona not much you can say there but they have a VERY clear shot of the Wee Vee's aft crane in 5-S....

Now normally we could cite the age of the film and it's probable color shifting.... but understand the color pics of that 5-S crane are very important...

It then move on to shots of downtown Honolulu, people walking past a storefront with excellent reflections in the windows where you can see the color reflections of the clothes people are wearing... Lots of skin tones of all nationalities and ethnic groups, pretty good images, watch for the lady wearing a dark blue dress carrying a bright red purse, then tell me about color shift...

It then moves on to the dry docking of the Nevada, we get to see more tugs in all three colors, 5-D, 5-S & the last one in a nice fresh coat of 5-N and you can easily see the red navigation lightbox on the port side bridge... but the best part of this film is it captures a battleship in 5-D which was the color scheme of the Nevada the day of the raid.... it shows the name plate on the stern in black, the hull sides in black the port side that is very weathered faded black/grey and going back to the stern a virtually undamaged aircraft crane in the same position as the Wee Vee, in stunning greyish black 5-D. A direct comparison of 5-D to 5-S with a full shot of a tug in a fresh coat of very dark 5-N........

Lots of pics so I may break it up into several uploads....

Here are the shots of the Wee Vee....

Re-floated under tow

Port side stern, see the nice blue stacks?

Starboard side stern again the nice blue stacks looks like the boat crane has some blue also

Starboard hull, might that be a hint of blue?

OH YESS!!! That's BLUE hull if I ever saw one, 5-S I'll bet....

I guess what we are seeing here is that the Wee Vee was painted blue, obviously in Measure 11, Sea Blue scheme...

As a comparison lets see a tugboat in Sea Blue....

Yep that looks like Sea Blue to me....

Pulling into dry dock now, take a look at the superstructure below the bridges in red lead and above the bare metal turrets, is that blue poking about in the recesses there?

I think it is pretty safe to say the Wee Vee was blue before the attack... and it looks like her painting was completed...

Now lets address the idea of color shift... Color shift will make a set range of colors appear different than the really are in comparison to each other, Blues appear darker than they really were and reds next to them will take on a bluish tint like become slightly purplish, yellow greens will take on a deeper green color and whites will take on a bluish haze....

Lets see how this film hold up....

Oh my look at that red sweater against the dark blue dress, no hints of purple there...

Look at that red purse, blue dress multi color belt, the pale yellow shirt, the bluish grey striped dress, the skin tones in both shadow and light.... No color shift there...

One more then we will get on with the navy color comparisons....

One has to take a look at the tan building side the red coke sign and the pink dress, Perfect color division no bleed over and no color shift....

Next post we go on to the Nevada, which we know was in Measure 1 5-D scheme... (Blacker than black)

EG