At 'Em Arizona Fans!

[Egilman]

We continue here with the color comparison between 5-D, 5-S & 5-N, all under the same light conditions at a period in time where they would all be seen painted on ships of the Pacific fleet....

USS Nevada, Ms. 1, 5-D, Blacker than Black....

Her stern nameplate, not burned, not submerged, same as the color chips I've seen of the Oklahoma and Enterprise....

Oh yes, faded 5-D looks kinda chalky doesn't it? look at the solid black boot topping and the worn anti-fouling red.....

Oh yes, weathered 5-D, compare to the 5-H haze grey and the places where the paint was burned off the hull.... No doubt exactly how 5-D is described...

At this point, we have three different tugs each painted in the three different dark scheme colors 5-D, 5-S & 5-N and I'm about to show them to you all...

We start with 5-D... Dark Grey

Yep 5-D for sure....

Now we go to 5-S..... Sea Blue

Looks like Sea Blue to me....

And finally 5-N... Navy Blue....

Yep nice dark blue.....

And lastly, the Crane of the Nevada, compared to the crane on the Wee Vee, a direct comparison of 5-D dark Grey and 5-S Sea Blue.....

The Nevada's crane in 5-D Dark Grey....

Wee Vee's crane, 5-S Sea Blue....

We know this is Wee Vee cause she is in the outside berth ahead of the Arizona in the background....

And it is the same light conditions, same camera, same time of the year....

WE now know the difference between 5-D, Dark Grey, 5-S Sea Blue and 5-N Navy Grey....

Unfortunately that is the only shot of Arizona in this video so it cannot tell us an answer to the burning question of was she finished or not.... but since it is now apparent that Wee Vee was in Sea Blue and I've seen images of the Tennessee in the same color that it is absolutely possible to paint a battleship completely in a week two of the battle line were and I'm now even more convinced that the Arizona was as well....

That's my evidence on the paint controversy....

If anyone wants to see the full complete 18 minute film I'm posting the link to it below.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5cqIT6_Cbs

Enjoy...

EG

[Jeff Sharp]

EG, I could talk all day and all night with you on these films and the colors of all the other battleships at Pearl but I feel we need to keep this forum specifically for USS Arizona and not muddy up this forum with discussions of other ships.
There needs to be a separate forum created for this discussion as it will get very lengthy and debated.

[ModelMonkey]

The color of ships at Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941 remains a very contentious issue hotly and bitterly argued by many for several years. Since the arguments, accusations and counter-accusations are certain to devolve into personal attacks and overwhelm this thread on Arizona, I'm going to exercise moderator's privilege and separate the coloration posts from this thread into their own thread later today.

[Egilman]

The colors of ships at Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941 remains a very contentious issue hotly and bitterly argued by many for several years. Since the arguments, accusations and counter-accusations are certain to devolve into personal attacks and overwhelm this thread on Arizona, I'm going to exercise moderator's privilege and separate the coloration posts from this thread into their own thread later today.

I understand on a topic organization standpoint, but I can also admit when I have been baited and I fell into the trap...

My apologies it won't happen again.... I'm new here so I really do not know the personalities, but I'm learning...

I'll go back to posting plans and researching, hey at least I learned something,

EG

[BB62vet]

The colors of ships at Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941 remains a very contentious issue hotly and bitterly argued by many for several years. Since the arguments, accusations and counter-accusations are certain to devolve into personal attacks and overwhelm this thread on Arizona, I'm going to exercise moderator's privilege and separate the coloration posts from this thread into their own thread later today.

BOY!!!!! Now you guys have done it!!!! You've riled up The Monkey Man (no ref. to Bob Dylan's song, by the way ) Just remember - Separation is one step away from Divorce - and when The Admiral is on THAT warpath, anything and everything is on the target list.

Whew, I'm glad The Monkey Man and I are friends........

[ModelMonkey]

No apologies are necessary. The color of ships at Pearl Harbor is a discussion absolutely worth having. But there is some unpleasant history associated with that topic some may not be aware of. For many reasons, that specific discussion tends to go very badly on this site and others.

What we can attempt to create here on MWS is a dedicated thread where evidence can be presented, interpretations of the evidence can be thoughtfully analyzed and respectfully discussed, and viewpoints be shared in a meaningful way, in it own place, free from personal attacks, put-downs, accusations and counter-accusations. Keep in mind, MWS needs to be a safe place for modelers.

That means we're going to have some rules for that thread. It may be best to start from scratch, with the opening post laying out some basic rules.

From sponsors' perspective, we don't want discussions-gone-bad running off the clientele. The color discussion has nearly always ended up as a hornets' nest of personal attacks. You all may remember the intimidating Faroe dealer Johnny Tyler played by Billy Bob Thornton in the movie "Tombstone". Tyler's behavior drove away the saloon's clientele. In a very memorable scene, Wyatt Earp, played by Kurt Russell, confronts Johnny Tyler saying, "You gonna do something or stand there and bleed?" After Earp ejects the bullying dealer, business at the saloon boomed. A booming business is what sponsors want.

Any "Johnny Tyler posts" on that thread will be deleted. If we're not able to maintain a safe thread for the color discussion, the entire thread can be deleted, too. Let's hope that won't be necessary.

[ModelMonkey]

New "Color of Battleships at Pearl Harbor" thread created. Let's keep it civil, meaningful and helpful.

Link: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=305334

[edit: moved to Camouflage and Coatings section, link updated]

[Egilman]

So, what is available in 1/350th aftermarket for the banner AZ, also what's worth it and what's not? Still considering my options on how much I want to put into it...

[Egilman]

https://www.model-monkey.com/battleships-350

Yeah I've seen that, anything else out there that would be useful?

[Mr. Church]

Eduard do a set for the HobbyBoss 1/350 U.S.S. Arizona which I gather is the same tooling as Banner? Though I am not 100% sure.

https://www.eduard.com/Eduard/Photo-etc ... 1-350.html
https://www.eduard.com/eduard/photo-etc ... 1-350.html

[Mr. Church]

As regards U.S.S. Arizona's colour scheme at the time of the Pearl Harbour attack:

If someone had a time machine and an HD Colour Camera Drone.. They could go back to December 7th 1941 and film Battleship Row from both sides, from above and from all around ten minutes before the first waves of Japanese aircraft arrived. Then come back here and post up the footage. But even if someone did that I bet there would probably still be arguments over the exact colours seen.

There seem to be various possibilities for U.S.S. Arizona, Dark Grey, Sea Blue, a semi-finished changeover between them etc. I have not researched it in any detail myself.

Therefore would it be possible perhaps to sticky and lock a single message relating to U.S.S. Arizona's colours on December 7th 1941? Lay out each of the possibilities for colour schemes in terms of references to supporting documentation, dates, clearly stating any assumptions made etc.? Do it dispassionately, in say a bullet point type format under a heading for each colour scheme?

Basically present all the currently known possibilities in one place in a clear, concise way and let the individual modeller reading it decide for themselves which to opt for?

[Egilman]

That discussion was moved to another section of the forum....

Link: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=305334&p=914435#p914435

But I don't know if there are many that really wish to discuss it anymore, I guess the discussion got real heated at one point.... But I"m searching my archives of pictures trying to come up with color shots showing them as I believe that is the only way we are really going to know... Of course we will have the expert photo analyzers come into the discussion and explain why all the color photos are really showing black/grey instead of the blue the pictures shows...

Oh well, build it the way your convinced it should be.... Is the advice generally given out here...

[Egilman]

Eduard do a set for the HobbyBoss 1/350 U.S.S. Arizona which I gather is the same tooling as Banner? Though I am not 100% sure.

https://www.eduard.com/Eduard/Photo-etc ... 1-350.html
https://www.eduard.com/eduard/photo-etc ... 1-350.html

Yes it's the same molding... thank you....

Anything we know on the guns? 5"25's & 5"51's?

[Mr. Church]

Eduard do a set for the HobbyBoss 1/350 U.S.S. Arizona which I gather is the same tooling as Banner? Though I am not 100% sure.

https://www.eduard.com/Eduard/Photo-etc ... 1-350.html
https://www.eduard.com/eduard/photo-etc ... 1-350.html

Yes it's the same molding... thank you....

Anything we know on the guns? 5"25's & 5"51's?

Black Cat Models of France produce both the types of 5 inch guns:
https://blackcatmodels.eu/en/weapons/72 ... rm-x4.html
https://blackcatmodels.eu/en/weapons/15 ... nt-x4.html

Veteran Models do the 5/25 Guns also:
https://freetimehobbies.com/1-350-veter ... pen-mount/

[Jeff Sharp]

This is the only pic I have ever been able to find that shows the aft gun tub and director platform still somewhat above water. Just behind the tub and the platform is YG-21 on the other side of the ship.

[gunfighter]

Glad to see the color issue moved. Now maybe we can get back to what the details of the ship were. What needs to be done to different kits to improve them. I'm working on the 1/200 kit and spent a week redoing the bow. Not perfect but a lot better that the kit to start with. I had asked a question awhile back about if the stays or guide wires for the stack were still in place as they were on the Penn. Hope someone out there has an answer Jeff you mention a YP21 in the back ground. Just what is a YP21?

[Jeff Sharp]

I had asked a question awhile back about if the stays or guide wires for the stack were still in place as they were on the Penn.

I have no doubt that the stack still had support wires but I can�t find a good pic yet. There is no way the stack would survive any kind of wind without support wires.

[Jeff Sharp]

Why what?

[Jeff Sharp]

Too tall and too thin to withstand wind on a consistent basis without wires. Also, if you look at photos of her all the way up her 1941 refit they show she had guide wires. There would be no reason to suspect there was no need for guide wires after her last refit.

[Jeff Sharp]

Sorry, I meant the steel was thin, not the actual size of the stack. So do you believe then Arizona didn't have any?