1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)

[Willie]

Howdy, Tom and all,

Having previously hand constructed 40 mm Quad and Twin Bofors I have some idea of how complex those are. It is difficult enough to divine how the various parts are shaped and sized let alone actually isolating and constructing them.

Tom, the curse (or the blessing, depending on your point of view) of building in such a big scale is that every structure or element that you build turns immediately into a small model by itself, and building them all from sketches and making them to come to the same scale is again another adventure, something that you have probably experienced a number of time as well.

I have already completely finished the hedgehog set, with the usual three coats, a wash and a dry brush. Once set in place it fills the gap, I presume.

Along with mount nr.2 and the bridge structure, the whole lot looks cramped and cluttered, which is my distinct memory of the same place on board USS The Sullivans.

Nice going and very best regards from this side,

Willie.[/size]

[Fliger747]

Willi:

Yes indeed even USN derived warships in the post war period when much equipment was removed, still ask for considerable justification for any empty deck or bulkhead space! Even a larger ship such as the APA made it into an obstacle course to do "laps". A scale weapon such as Hedgehog has a lot of parts, the individual "hogs" each has to be inclined at it's proper angle plus the supporting equipment and lockers, then there are two!

Pleased to see the sub assemblies come together!

Regards: Tom

[Willie]

Hi all modelers again.

This week I had a go with the forecastle and the anchors, ship elements that I have always liked. The first thing were the anchors themselves.

I have excellent pics of US Navy stockless anchors, taken on board USS The Sullivans:

After this, I could see that the ones in the kit are good but can be improved. The flukes are OK after they have been reshaped, but the shank comes with a molded crown shackle attached to an awful looking plastic chain, so it has to be completely replaced.
The only interesting step in this first stage was to open the channel all along the shoulders, but little else. Thew shanks were carefully glued in position, so that they fit perfectly when into hawseholes. I added a crown shackle and a 10 cm. section of chain.

The anchors are set in place loosely, but they keep their position by sheer weight of the chain. The effect is good enough for me.

After this, the deck elements. I have no picture at all of how it was on board Jorge Juan, but I have some of other Fletchers, and all of them follow the same pattern:

The first elements were easy to build. The turnbuckles are out of scale, but I am not able to handle smaller diameter rings. I would have liked to see again the tutorial by EJFoeth in his HMS Hood thread to see how he did these elements, but the pics seem to have vanished in the air.

I completed the set with some other chain links in two diameters, and used the kit hawse covers and the winch. It is now like this:

I hope you like it, and very best regards from the North Atlantic,

Willie.[/size]

[Fliger747]

An interesting system with a single wildcat. Letting go both anchors not a possibility unless the idea was to get rid of weight and watch the bitter end rattle overboard. Wonder how they managed this system? For my APA I carved the anchors out of basswood, for Poseidon I will attempt to 3D them. Working with a kit has advantages!

Forecastle looking quite nice! The small deck tackle adds a lot of authenticity. I remember modeling the turnbuckles on truss rods for some Ho N3 rolling sock decades ago. The ARL will have more opportunities for small rigging items!

Nice work! Tom

[bwross11]

Very nice Willie; you've managed to really capture the look of the anchors and the forecastle in general. Looking forward to more updates.

[BB62vet]

Willie,

Excellent work! You've captured the foc'sle deck gear quite well. I esp. like what you've done with modification to the kit anchors - nicely refined with all the details that were needed.

Hank

[Rick E Davis]

Willie,

You do such wonderful craftsmanship on your models, I'm not even close to your skill level. Hank and Tom work wonders with "software and 3-D printers", different methods to building great models. You guys will have the most "realistic" destroyer models of 4-Gun FLETCHER's.

I have looked at a lot of photos of FLETCHER's dated from 1942 to the mid-1970s (and beyond) and the forecastle doesn't change much at all. Plus, on most "active service" destroyers, they have a cluttered look from added equipment and stowage of all manner of "stuff". But, the forecastle is the one part of the ship that remains clean and neat. I guess trying to "add" something in that area would not be possible with the anchor gear.

[Fliger747]

Willie!

Yes the Fletcher Forecastles always remain very clean and straightforward. Perhaps this is from the area being swept with blue water with some frequency in a heavy seaway. The foredeck of the ARL is by contrast covered with a busy collection of items, but it's light bluff bow may make for a lot of spray, it bobs like a cork rather than slicing through. In the photo on the foredeck (real ship) the chain goes around the aft end of the covers to the chain lockers. Those are fairly unusual in being open on both ends. It would be interesting to see what the procedure for changing anchors was? One of the photos showed an open pelican hook laying on the foredeck.

As to anchor chain, EJ Foeth hand formed stud link chain for his hood, a tour de force up there with Song hand carving his chains from wood for his 1:200 ships. Being stubborn in the pre 3D days, I hand did the APA Anchor Chain from styrene, which is fortunately hidden below the forward Bofors and not available for close inspection.

I see the kit slightly elevated what were usually the walkways covered with non skid paint, do you know what the Spanish Navy procedure was in this manner?

Keep up the good work!

Cheers: Tom

[Willie]

Hi all modelers,

And thanks to all of you for your remarks, that are always apreciated.

Tom, to make a chain link after link would drive me absolutely nuts, other than this is way beyond my ability.

I see the kit slightly elevated what were usually the walkways covered with non skid paint, do you know what the Spanish Navy procedure was in this manner?

Tom, in the modern units (I can still see the deck of my ship) it was and still is non-skid all over, and pretty rough. From the Fletchers I have no vivid memories, but I noticed that they had lines on deck, so I presume they kept the US Navy pattern, as with everything else. There are pics that back this idea:

I will have to study this subject in due moment, but it is something very easy to do, and hence the last of my worries.

I have given another push to the rear stack, adding some more details. Firstable, the thick double wiring with two sharp curves on the left, going up from deck to the ECM domes. Apparently, as with many other elements common to all the class, there are no two ships having identical arrangements, and I have seen no clear picture of how it was on board Jorge Juan, other than it is there too. I have followed the model of USS The Sullivans, because it is common to many other units and is slightly off-side, in an ideal position to have room later to add the supports for the upper platform:

After this I tried the scale. I have one single good (but blurr) picture of how this scale was attached to the stack on Jorge Juan:

This system seems to be the common one to all Fletchers, so this solves the problem:

I cut the first elements from a 2.5 mm. Evergreen canal, which is exactly the width of the scale that I have.

When they are set in place with the "sides", the kind of step that follows is ideal to place the scale with absolute precision and no effort at all:

It was afterwards completed with scraps of stretched sprue.

I have also added the upper section of the wiring trunk, so the thing is at the moment like this:

I will try to finish it this week. In the meanwhile, nice going and best regards from this side of the world,

Willie.[/size]

[BB62vet]

Willie,

First, your stack work looks exceptional - right to your high standards!! Always enjoyable to see further work on JJ!!

As for the deck non-skid - yes, the indentations in the molded deck represented the std. layout for that. However, as you say - each ship did sort of how it pleased with keeping the non-skid properly maintained and functional.

I'm not positive, but I think on STODDARD when we were in LBNS for a 6 mo. overhaul (drydock, etc.) in 1967-68 there were available small rectangular shaped non-skid pads that could be adhered to the deck and these are normally what you see on the FLETCHERs of the era. Where the solid non-skid walkway is shown (main deck) - that was made up by taping off the area to be coated, a layer of epoxy glue laid down, light grit sand applied to the expoxy and let dry. Then, the loose sand was swept up and the resultant "rough" surface rolled out with black deck paint and then the tape removed. I don't believe that there was available at that time ready made non-skid paint with a grainy texture. Of course, with time, salt water, sunshine, and so forth all taking their toll on the ship's surfaces, these non-skid areas didn't stay rough all that long.

Hank

[Fliger747]

Looking at photos from above one can see a succession of rectangular anti skid panels with rounded corners applied to the deck. This seems to have been a WWII usage. I haven't personally seen these but have a roll of anti skid tape from which I have made a similar set of panels for the floats on my airplane. At least you won't have to deal with those.

The stack looks really excellent and will be a good detail hi light. Post war much clutter and complexity was removed in the way of K guns, light AA and whatnot, to be replaced by other complexity by way of electronics.

Excellent and very steady progress.

Cheers: Tom

[Rick E Davis]

In the 1950's there was a variety of "ASW weapons clutter" going on. The introduction of the Mk 2 ASW Torpedo launching system (TLS) (using the Mk 4 launcher as seen on USS CASSIN YOUNG) for launching "over the side" the Mk 32 torpedoes (more like a self-propelled depth charge) were installed on many destroyers. Also, there were the PMGL system installed on PacFlt FLETCHER's. The PMGL (Poor Man's Gravity Launcher ) was a fantail drop rail device designed by a yard crew in Japan when the PacFlt was frustrated that they had Mk 32 torpedoes, but that it would take like two years to get the Mk 2 TLS installed on all their destroyers. The Mk 4 launchers were installed in multiple locations on destroyers. The PMGL system was installed mostly parallel to the starboard side 600-lb depth charge drop track and the reload rack was moved forward of the drop track. However, a few destroyers had the PMGL installed on the portside!!

When the Mk 43 torpedo was introduced to the fleet, a similar problem arose. The only launchers available were the Mk 2 TLS and the Fleet used them to launch the Mk 43 torpedo, but sometimes the much smaller diameter torpedo than the Mk 32 torpedo, was damaged. And once again the PacFlt decided to make a smaller version of the PMGL, the PBGL (Poor Boy's Gravity Launcher ). It also was installed on the fantail, normally next to the PMGL.

It wasn't until the early-mid 1960's with the introduction of the Mk 32 triple ASW torpedo launchers (and a single Mk 27 single torpedo launcher was installed on four FLETCHER's) with Mk 44 torpedoes, that the Mk 2 TLS, PMGL, PBGL, etc were retired and removed.

[Fliger747]

Willie:

Thank you for posting the excellent photos of the anchors on Sullivans, anchors are one of the design construction tasks I am procrastinating about. It was interesting that the hull had sharp indentations from the anchor flukes, including apparently a patch? I wonder how those occurred? Anchor being flung about in a heavy sea or perhaps kissing a dock or ship coming alongside?

It is very helpful that ships of an era often had equipment in common so your solutions may indeed be of help to the rest of us.

Cheers: Tom

[Willie]

Hi there all modeler friends,

And thanks once more for your encouraging remarks, that are really apreciated.

I'm not positive, but I think on STODDARD when we were in LBNS for a 6 mo. overhaul (drydock, etc.) in 1967-68 there were available small rectangular shaped non-skid pads that could be adhered to the deck and these are normally what you see on the FLETCHERs of the era.

Hank, I remember seeing these on board my ship in 1984-85, but only indoors, before and after every water tight door. As fot the rest, everything outdoors was non skid deck paintjob.

Where the solid non-skid walkway is shown (main deck) - that was made up by taping off the area to be coated, a layer of epoxy glue laid down, light grit sand applied to the expoxy and let dry. Then, the loose sand was swept up and the resultant "rough" surface rolled out with black deck paint and then the tape removed. (...) Of course, with time, salt water, sunshine, and so forth all taking their toll on the ship's surfaces, these non-skid areas didn't stay rough all that long.

This is exactly the deck painting process I could witness countless times while in the navy, only that in our case the full deck had the treatment, and the old paint was stripped before to the bare metal, and then the process. It was a job that everybody involved hated, as it was heavy work that had to be done many times under the blistering hot conditions of Rota Naval Station. I remember a couple of guys who had to be taken away by the paramedics after a severe heat stroke.

(...) The introduction of the Mk 2 ASW Torpedo launching system (TLS) (using the Mk 4 launcher as seen on USS CASSIN YOUNG) for launching "over the side" the Mk 32 torpedoes (more like a self-propelled depth charge) were installed on many destroyers. Also, there were the PMGL system installed on PacFlt FLETCHER's. The PMGL (Poor Man's Gravity Launcher ) was a fantail drop rail device designed by a yard crew in Japan when the PacFlt was frustrated that they had Mk 32 torpedoes, but that it would take like two years to get the Mk 2 TLS installed on all their destroyers. The Mk 4 launchers were installed in multiple locations on destroyers. The PMGL system was installed mostly parallel to the starboard side 600-lb depth charge drop track and the reload rack was moved forward of the drop track. However, a few destroyers had the PMGL installed on the portside!!

Mr. Davis, I presume you are talking of this, the Mk.32 ASW TLS on board USS Cassin Young:

I had no idea what it was, but now the thing is clear, so thanks a lot for the precious information. I will have to see if my ship had this thing on board or not in the mid. 1960�s. What I have not been able to trace is the PMGL. Have you got any picture showing this ???

Thank you for posting the excellent photos of the anchors on Sullivans, anchors are one of the design construction tasks I am procrastinating about. (...) It is very helpful that ships of an era often had equipment in common so your solutions may indeed be of help to the rest of us.

Tom, I am glad if --after the vast amount of help I have been having from this site for years-- I can be of some help myself.

It was interesting that the hull had sharp indentations from the anchor flukes, including apparently a patch? I wonder how those occurred? Anchor being flung about in a heavy sea or perhaps kissing a dock or ship coming alongside?

I asume that with such thin plates as destroyers had, indentations from the anchors were (had to be, actually) a common place. I can remember that my ship had a severe dent ahead of the bow anchor, but from the anchor of the CVL D�dalo, (ex USS Cabot), received while getting into port in Rota at too high speed, macho style, crashing into Dedalo�s bow and actually breaking her anchor chain, after what the anchor fell off the hawse hole, and had to be recovered by divers. I don�t know if anybody suffered after this kiss: the officers in my ship did not, as far as I know, and our commander at the time finished his career as VA, so I asume he did not either. You have to break the eggs to make an omelette, was probably the philosophy behind it.

Nice going from across the seas,

Willie.

[Willie]

Hi all again,

Something I forgot in the previous post. USS McGowan, later Jorge Juan, had a device just behind the capstan, that I am not able to identify:

On the other hand, Alcal� Galiano, her sister ship, had something that --according to the place where it was-- I asume had the same function, but that was quite different in shape:

In high seas and in overall whites the sailor is obviously a steward that should not be there, and in full view from the bridge, he is most probably about to have an interesting moment with the WO.

Could somebody please throw some light on what this device is, and if possible add some clear picture of it ?

TIA, and very best regards again,

Willie.

[Fliger747]

Willie

Hank may be able to identify this. I believe it is a cabinet to protect winch controls. Hank made some device here for his Stoddard.

Regards. Tom

[Rick E Davis]

Wille,

I'm traveling right now, so I can't post images of the PMGL until I get home.

Likely Jorge Juan no longer had the Mk 2 TLS, if she ever did, by the time she was transferred. Actually, I think she was one of the units that had the Mk 27 single torpedo tube installed on her Mk 15 torpedo tubes mount. But, it too was removed prior to transfer. Again, I will have to double check when I get home.

As post posted above by Tom, the "cabinet/box" is a cover for the controls. Originally, they were pretty much left out in the open. The shape and size of the "box/cover" varied depending on when and where it was installed. Hank and I went through this on his build several months ago.

Take care,

Rick

[Willie]

Hi there Tom, Mr Davis and all,

You are right, of course. In my opinion it couldn�t be anything else, but i wanted to be sure.

I'm traveling right now, so I can't post images of the PMGL until I get home.

Mr. Davis, no hurry at all. This is a hobby and can wait. Whenever you can add it, the information will be on time all the same, and it will be as interesting as always, I am sure.

Once the thing was clear, to build it was nothing at all. I made a base with Evergreen 4.00 mm. tube and 4.00 mm. stripe, and then refined it with cover, door and hinges.

I also made the handwheel by its side, using a PE and Evergreen scraps:

The effect is excellent, and with this I can consider the f�castle set as complete. Of course handrails will be added at the end of the construction.

Other than this, I realized some days ago that the vertical wiring trunk on the rear stack is off-side on board USS The Sullivans, but virtually centerline on Jorge Juan. This picture shows in a somehow blurr way where it actually was, but shows clearly where it was not.

Obviously I had to delete all the previous work, and re-do the bloody thing. This has happened to me so many times with this ship that I have the impression that I have virtually built two ships instead of one. At the same time, I have almost made a master at coarse language and rough words in four different languages --no mean feat.
The good thing is that --as it is now ca. 4.0 mm closer to the center-- the wiring can be taken straight to the deck, the way it actually was on board USS The Sullivans, and the most logical one, I presume.

When compared with the older way, it looks now much better as well, I would say.

I hope you like it, and very best regards from this side to all of you,

Willie.[/size]

[Fliger747]

Ah yes the complete re do! By this method I have two complete sets of boats for my APA and two sets of light AA. I would probably re do all the deck winches if de rigging wasn't involved. However it does seem an excellent method to unearth otherwise otherwise hidden materials. Complete some object and suddenly more info becomes available! I suppose at this juncture that I can only be glad for the new information! Rather amazing the amount of small detail that accumulates around the stacks.

Best regards: Tom

[Willie]

Hi there Tom and all,

Ah yes the complete re do! By this method I have two complete sets of boats for my APA and two sets of light AA. I would probably re do all the deck winches if de rigging wasn't involved. However it does seem an excellent method to unearth otherwise otherwise hidden materials. Complete some object and suddenly more info becomes available!

And if you add the Carpet Monster�s action, your happiness will be complete. With the Carpet Monster in action there is plenty of room for the re-making of pieces that were already made. Many of my pieces have developed a surprising ability to jump away when under the cutting process, and at times it is easier for me to make a new one rather than improving my own coarse language abilities cursing all the time while looking for it everywhere in the room.

And a new question for all of you guys. What are the holes on the anchor flukes for ? I have been researching the subject in the internet, but I have found nothing reg. this subject.

As far as I can remember I have seen them only in US Navy anchors, but I could be wrong.

TIA for your time and help, and very best regards from this side,

Willie.[/size]